EV Charger Models

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wwhitney said:
So far no more or less than having fire detection in the garage for any car. EVs just get more attention because they are newer.

Cheers, Wayne
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The problem is EV’s are a much hotter fire that does not go out. When the electrical goes bad on a petro powered vehicle, usually a fuse blows, and it self extinguishes. Gasoline fires are much easier to put out and proper firewalls but more time because the fire is not as hot. Maybe a chemical fire suppression system built into the battery pack enclosure might be a solution.
 
wwhitney said:
On that last point, just from an efficiency point of view, running the EV's internal charger may have a fixed or fairly fixed overhead (running cooling fans and radiator pumps, for example). In which case a higher charge rate could be more efficient overall, despite the larger I2R losses.

So slower is not necessarily more efficient electrically. But I don't have specific data, and it would vary by vehicle.

Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne, absolutely agree with you.

And if you go even farther towards slower charger by using L1 (120 VAC) it gets worse. The fixed costs you mentioned contribute to even more inefficiency compared to L2 charging. I'm too lazy to look it up but I recall numbers like 8 to 10% losses for L2 and maybe 15 to 18% for L1.

The reason I was mentioning charging rates less than "Give Me All You Have Scotty" was to somewhat account for the OP and the mention of

Greg H said:
... "we have seen some issues with higher amperage shorting out the cars chargers input because of temperature sensors reading high levels." ...
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This is likely due to thermistors embedded in the charging plug and poor workmanship in the connections of a 15-50 receptacle, or poor fitting/retention of plug blades into that receptacle. That party starts to heat up and the thermistor senses the overheating and shuts off the EVSE.

So, to me anyway, something to be said for less is more.

Also, it can address somewhat the problem that all of the naysayers like to talk about where 5 households all get home and plug in their BEVs, all at the same time, and each asks 48 Amps from a little shared 25 kVA pot. I have often thought that POCOs should offer a steeper TOU discount for people that charger slower than Full Beans. Just an idea.
 
MD Automation said:
Wayne, absolutely agree with you.

And if you go even farther towards slower charger by using L1 (120 VAC) it gets worse. The fixed costs you mentioned contribute to even more inefficiency compared to L2 charging. I'm too lazy to look it up but I recall numbers like 8 to 10% losses for L2 and maybe 15 to 18% for L1.

The reason I was mentioning charging rates less than "Give Me All You Have Scotty" was to somewhat account for the OP and the mention of



This is likely due to thermistors embedded in the charging plug and poor workmanship in the connections of a 15-50 receptacle, or poor fitting/retention of plug blades into that receptacle. That party starts to heat up and the thermistor senses the overheating and shuts off the EVSE.

So, to me anyway, something to be said for less is more.

Also, it can address somewhat the problem that all of the naysayers like to talk about where 5 households all get home and plug in their BEVs, all at the same time, and each asks 48 Amps from a little shared 25 kVA pot. I have often thought that POCOs should offer a steeper TOU discount for people that charger slower than Full Beans. Just an idea.
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When I charge L1, it draws 12A, 1.4KW at 120V. Net to the battery averages about 1KW. About 30% loss.


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IMO running 42 amps on a 60 amp circuit is the sweet spot for L2 EV charging. Running 48 amps allowable on a direct wired EVSE just gets the wires, connections and breakers just a little too warm for my taste on a 4 to 6 hour continuous charge.

Cooler is better for any multi-hour continuous draw plus I believe equipment will last longer.
 
DanS26 said:
IMO running 42 amps on a 60 amp circuit is the sweet spot for L2 EV charging. Running 48 amps allowable on a direct wired EVSE just gets the wires, connections and breakers just a little too warm for my taste on a 4 to 6 hour continuous charge.

Cooler is better for any multi-hour continuous draw plus I believe equipment will last longer.
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Most adjustable (and fixed) EVSEs have setting steps of 24, 32, 40, 48…..I’ve never seen a 42.
Some cars (Tesla) I think do allow a more granular setting.
 
retirede said:
Most adjustable (and fixed) EVSEs have setting steps of 24, 32, 40, 48…..I’ve never seen a 42.
Some cars (Tesla) I think do allow a more granular setting.
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You're right 42 amps is not a normal setting. I set up the EVSEs at 48 amps and tell the owner to charge at only 42 amps if the EV allows. This creates a buffer so that the owner can charge at 48 amp max if its required. Never had a complaint.
 
@greg I have installed nearly every major brand there is. At least one of them has failed at some point. Mostly software or component related I assume. The only catastrophic failures I have seen are due to installer error when installing the conductors. I don't think there is a real wrong choice to any of them of you just want one that feeds power to the car. In my world though, it is all about ease of install, material quality, customer support, looks and features.

We chose for non-Tesla the Chargepoint HomeFlex. It has the ability to set the max output up to 48 amps. This allows us to fit it into panels that may not have much available amperage as well as give up to 48 amps to panels that have room. It has a user friendly app that allows you to monitor car charging, remotely access for troubleshooting as well as change setting. It was around $700 but we got a deal from the supplier. It is easy to install( which is one of the most important things) and their customer service is good. I don't like that you can only enter from the bottom and back, but not a lot of chargers have the top entrance option. This maxes out at 48 amps on a 60 amp breaker. I don't recommend to anyone( including Ford and Lucid owners) to install anything bigger( like an 80-100 amp charger). Its not worth the added cost of the beefier charger or the possibility of needing a service upgrade due to the high draw. Most people are home 8-10 hours a night which is more than enough time to charge your car at 48 amps or less.

For Teslas, buy the Tesla Wall Connector. They even sell a J-1772 one that fits non EV's. Tesla's charger is on their 3 generation. Its far cheaper and far superior in all aspects to any other charger brand. You can adjust the output via Wifi and Tesla can remotely access for troubleshooting. It has integrated load sharing allowing you to install multiple chargers on the same circuit. This basically means if you only have 50 amps available you can install multiple chargers on the same feed and it wont overload that breaker. Lastly, we are part of their pilot program that allows you to add CT clamps to it to monitor your main breaker draw. If you get close to 80% of the main it will lower the output of the charger to avoid overloading the main. This is great for houses with 100 amp or less services. It also allows wiring from the top, bottom and back. They do break. I would say 1 in a 100 break but they are very easy to swap out. I would sell the J1772 ones more but non-Tesla EV owners get a little territorial and don't want to see the name Tesla near their Chevy Bolt.

I have not had any issues with Juicebox EnelX more than any other brand. I actually like them, they were the first to have a load share option.


The only other thing I would mention is that if you are installing a NEMA 14-50 ( range outlet) Don't cheap out. To me its not worth the risk. Google melted nema 14-50 if you don't believe me. In fact any plug in EV chargers should use the highest quality outlet you can find. 8-10 hrs of constant heat will expose residential/commercial grade outlets. Use the Hubbell ones that cost $80 to $100. They have never failed me and its worth the peace of mind.

Hope that helps
 
senoirbubbles said:
@greg I have installed nearly every major brand there is. At least one of them has failed at some point. Mostly software or component related I assume. The only catastrophic failures I have seen are due to installer error when installing the conductors. I don't think there is a real wrong choice to any of them of you just want one that feeds power to the car. In my world though, it is all about ease of install, material quality, customer support, looks and features.

We chose for non-Tesla the Chargepoint HomeFlex. It has the ability to set the max output up to 48 amps. This allows us to fit it into panels that may not have much available amperage as well as give up to 48 amps to panels that have room. It has a user friendly app that allows you to monitor car charging, remotely access for troubleshooting as well as change setting. It was around $700 but we got a deal from the supplier. It is easy to install( which is one of the most important things) and their customer service is good. I don't like that you can only enter from the bottom and back, but not a lot of chargers have the top entrance option. This maxes out at 48 amps on a 60 amp breaker. I don't recommend to anyone( including Ford and Lucid owners) to install anything bigger( like an 80-100 amp charger). Its not worth the added cost of the beefier charger or the possibility of needing a service upgrade due to the high draw. Most people are home 8-10 hours a night which is more than enough time to charge your car at 48 amps or less.

For Teslas, buy the Tesla Wall Connector. They even sell a J-1772 one that fits non EV's. Tesla's charger is on their 3 generation. Its far cheaper and far superior in all aspects to any other charger brand. You can adjust the output via Wifi and Tesla can remotely access for troubleshooting. It has integrated load sharing allowing you to install multiple chargers on the same circuit. This basically means if you only have 50 amps available you can install multiple chargers on the same feed and it wont overload that breaker. Lastly, we are part of their pilot program that allows you to add CT clamps to it to monitor your main breaker draw. If you get close to 80% of the main it will lower the output of the charger to avoid overloading the main. This is great for houses with 100 amp or less services. It also allows wiring from the top, bottom and back. They do break. I would say 1 in a 100 break but they are very easy to swap out. I would sell the J1772 ones more but non-Tesla EV owners get a little territorial and don't want to see the name Tesla near their Chevy Bolt.

I have not had any issues with Juicebox EnelX more than any other brand. I actually like them, they were the first to have a load share option.


The only other thing I would mention is that if you are installing a NEMA 14-50 ( range outlet) Don't cheap out. To me its not worth the risk. Google melted nema 14-50 if you don't believe me. In fact any plug in EV chargers should use the highest quality outlet you can find. 8-10 hrs of constant heat will expose residential/commercial grade outlets. Use the Hubbell ones that cost $80 to $100. They have never failed me and its worth the peace of mind.

Hope that helps
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Have you ever had trouble passing inspection when taking advantage of load-share capabilities to use a branch circuit for multiple EVSEs? 625.40 still requires each EVSE to be on its own circuit.

Current codes only allow load-sharing to be taken into account when sizing services and feeders (625.42). There is supposed to be a change coming in 2026 to allow it for sizing branch circuits for multiple EVSEs.

The extended range Ford Lightning (131 KWH useable battery) comes standard with an 80A EVSE. It can be hardware-limited to be installed on a lesser circuit.
 
retirede said:
Have you ever had trouble passing inspection when taking advantage of load-share capabilities to use a branch circuit for multiple EVSEs? 625.40 still requires each EVSE to be on its own circuit.

Current codes only allow load-sharing to be taken into account when sizing services and feeders (625.42). There is supposed to be a change coming in 2026 to allow it for sizing branch circuits for multiple EVSEs.

The extended range Ford Lightning (131 KWH useable battery) comes standard with an 80A EVSE. It can be hardware-limited to be installed on a lesser circuit.
Click to expand...
I have never had an issue using one circuit to power multiple chargers as long as they have load share capabilities. I am not saying it is not technically wrong, but the AHJ was fine with it. In the Gen. 2 wall connector manual it specifically tells you to load share on one circuit. They changed it in the gen. 3 manual to include individual breakers for each charger even if load sharing. I am doing an install now of a large level 2 system with 26 chargers that uses the tap method to feed 4 chargers with one large 500KCMIL wire. It passed through permitting with no issues.

Regarding the 80A Ford EVSE. I still would put it on a 60 amp breaker even with the larger capacity. Tesla offered its Gen. 2 EVSE for years with a capable 80 amp output on a 100 amp breaker. Some of the older models up to about 2019 Model X and S could draw up to 72 amps. Since then they standardized a max 48 amp charge rate on all their cars(some are 32 amps) and changed the Gen.3 to max at 48 amps as well. My feeling is the 48 amp chargers are an easier install to fit into existing systems, safer install and for 90% of people its all you need to charger your car. For myself after 4 years of having an EV, I charge for a approx. 3-5 hours a week and could easily have a 24 amp charger with no inconvenience.
 
senoirbubbles said:
I have never had an issue using one circuit to power multiple chargers as long as they have load share capabilities. I am not saying it is not technically wrong, but the AHJ was fine with it. In the Gen. 2 wall connector manual it specifically tells you to load share on one circuit. They changed it in the gen. 3 manual to include individual breakers for each charger even if load sharing. I am doing an install now of a large level 2 system with 26 chargers that uses the tap method to feed 4 chargers with one large 500KCMIL wire. It passed through permitting with no issues.

Regarding the 80A Ford EVSE. I still would put it on a 60 amp breaker even with the larger capacity. Tesla offered its Gen. 2 EVSE for years with a capable 80 amp output on a 100 amp breaker. Some of the older models up to about 2019 Model X and S could draw up to 72 amps. Since then they standardized a max 48 amp charge rate on all their cars(some are 32 amps) and changed the Gen.3 to max at 48 amps as well. My feeling is the 48 amp chargers are an easier install to fit into existing systems, safer install and for 90% of people its all you need to charger your car. For myself after 4 years of having an EV, I charge for a approx. 3-5 hours a week and could easily have a 24 amp charger with no inconvenience.
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Thanks for responding.

I’ve had an EV for over 2 years and use a 48A EVSE. I recently bought a Lightning, but I haven’t installed the 80A Charge Station Pro and have no immediate plans to do so. Even 48A is overkill, as you stated.

One question about the tap method you mention:

The tap rules generally require the tap conductors to terminate on an OCPD. Or is there an exception you were able to use?
 
retirede said:
Thanks for responding.

I’ve had an EV for over 2 years and use a 48A EVSE. I recently bought a Lightning, but I haven’t installed the 80A Charge Station Pro and have no immediate plans to do so. Even 48A is overkill, as you stated.

One question about the tap method you mention:

The tap rules generally require the tap conductors to terminate on an OCPD. Or is there an exception you were able to ul
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Regarding the tap. I am not sure how they are getting away with no OCPD. The leads coming out of the breakers seems to be a proprietary system with the taps integrated into the leads. I had to pre-measure all the lengths and they manufactured them. Feel free to PM me and will share with you the details.
 
I was working with Eaton’s engineers years ago when they were trying to reduce the cost of putting in multiple circuits for multiple commercial chargers, I suggested building the pedestal like an rv pedestal, 200 amp feeder looping through with individual ocp. Don’t know if they ever did, haven’t done a commercial charging station in years.
 
hillbilly1 said:
I was working with Eaton’s engineers years ago when they were trying to reduce the cost of putting in multiple circuits for multiple commercial chargers, I suggested building the pedestal like an rv pedestal, 200 amp feeder looping through with individual ocp. Don’t know if they ever did, haven’t done a commercial charging station in years.
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I have not seen it. In other news disrelated news, they just came out with an EVSE that is integrated into one breaker. So you can install the breaker in a panel and run the chord direct into the panel.
 
@RE-tired I was just looking at 2017 625.40 and it says "Each outlet installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit. Each circuit shall have no other outlets" Outlet in the code is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". I could take take that as meaning only one branch circuit for an actual outlet like a NEMA 14-50. That would make more sense being that someone could plug a non- load sharing device in a circuit with multiple outlets meant for load sharing. I am sure you could also argue that any point at which you attach an EV charger to wiring is an outlet too. What are your thoughts?
 
senoirbubbles said:
@RE-tired I was just looking at 2017 625.40 and it says "Each outlet installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit. Each circuit shall have no other outlets" Outlet in the code is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". I could take take that as meaning only one branch circuit for an actual outlet like a NEMA 14-50. That would make more sense being that someone could plug a non- load sharing device in a circuit with multiple outlets meant for load sharing. I am sure you could also argue that any point at which you attach an EV charger to wiring is an outlet too. What are your thoughts?
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Agreed. Each EVSE connection is an outlet, receptacle or not. This then requires each EVSE to be on its own branch circuit. Load sharing capability does not remove this requirement.

There is supposed to be a change coming in 2026 that would allow EVSEs with load sharing capability to share a branch circuit as long as the branch circuit is sized for the maximum shared load.
 
senoirbubbles said:
I have not seen it. In other news disrelated news, they just came out with an EVSE that is integrated into one breaker. So you can install the breaker in a panel and run the chord direct into the panel.
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That will only be of use if the panel is located near the parking spot. NEC limits charging cables to 24 feet unless the EVSE has an integrated cable management system.
 
retirede said:
That will only be of use if the panel is located near the parking spot. NEC limits charging cables to 24 feet unless the EVSE has an integrated cable management system.
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The Chinese are making an unlisted extension cables……… Still not legal. Had a customer that wanted to do that so we could put the controller’s inside the dock area!
 
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