EV's in Parking Garages

[gadfly56]

For those who don't know, my focus is fire alarm and fire protection. We've had a client come to us because there is "concern" regarding fire protection issues revolving around their intent to install EV charging stations on each deck of a parking garage. The corporate insurer is Zurich Re. This is something that the fire protection industry has definitely been behind the curve in addressing. What, if anything, have forum members seen?

 

[hbiss]

How does EV charging differ from hundreds of vehicles each filled with 30 gallons of gasoline?

-Hal

 

[retirede]

How does EV charging differ from hundreds of vehicles each filled with 30 gallons of gasoline?

-Hal

Electricity is more abstract and thus becomes the scapegoat when another cause of fire cannot be easily determined.

 

[texie]

This will turn political very quickly and I have always tried steer away from sharing my political views here.
That said, I think the OP raises a very valid and fair question. I think that comparing the risk of IC car fires VS EV cars is vastly different. A modern IC car fire rarely evolves to the point that the fuel in the tank is an issue and most are quickly extinguished. A battery fire is a whole lot more serious and complicated to extinguish.

 

[jaggedben]

For those who don't know, my focus is fire alarm and fire protection. We've had a client come to us because there is "concern" regarding fire protection issues revolving around their intent to install EV charging stations on each deck of a parking garage. The corporate insurer is Zurich Re. This is something that the fire protection industry has definitely been behind the curve in addressing. What, if anything, have forum members seen?

But seriously...

What's the 'concern'?

Can't address something completely nebulous.

If they aren't saying, what do you think should be addressed?

I'm inclined to point out that prevention is almost completely in the hands of the car manufacturers. (Other than maybe some simple things like bollards to protect equipment.) Suppression might be a different story.

 

[retirede]

This will turn political very quickly and I have always tried steer away from sharing my political views here.
That said, I think the OP raises a very valid and fair question. I think that comparing the risk of IC car fires VS EV cars is vastly different. A modern IC car fire rarely evolves to the point that the fuel in the tank is an issue and most are quickly extinguished. A battery fire is a whole lot more serious and complicated to extinguish.

There will likely be EVs parking in the garage. With or without the chargers.

 

[Charged]

I’m not sure if it was ever officially codified but Columbus Ohio fire code added a section with requirements for installation, mainly clearances and a required emergency shut off via Knox box. It was a remote keyed switch I used with shunt trip breakers for installation for some of the city’s fleet vehicles.

 

[gadfly56]

How does EV charging differ from hundreds of vehicles each filled with 30 gallons of gasoline?

-Hal

I will express the client's concern and that of their insurer as opposed to setting up a soap box. Specifically, they are concerned about battery fires during charging. I'm not interested in discussing the likelihood of such an event; the client has already set that parameter. I'm interested in what others have seen "in the wild" regarding segregating EV charging and what, if any, fire protection has been set up.

 

[retirede]

I will express the client's concern and that of their insurer as opposed to setting up a soap box. Specifically, they are concerned about battery fires during charging. I'm not interested in discussing the likelihood of such an event; the client has already set that parameter. I'm interested in what others have seen "in the wild" regarding segregating EV charging and what, if any, fire protection has been set up.

All installations in parking lots and garages that I’ve seen seem to be located nearest the electrical supply. Likely to minimize installation cost. Since you mentioned his insurer, I’d put this back on the client - ask for any requirements or recommendations from the insurer, then you can quote the job accordingly.

 

[hbiss]

That said, I think the OP raises a very valid and fair question. I think that comparing the risk of IC car fires VS EV cars is vastly different. A modern IC car fire rarely evolves to the point that the fuel in the tank is an issue and most are quickly extinguished. A battery fire is a whole lot more serious and complicated to extinguish.

I think you answered my question. I agree.

-Hal

 

[electrofelon]

This will turn political very quickly and I have always tried steer away from sharing my political views here.
That said, I think the OP raises a very valid and fair question. I think that comparing the risk of IC car fires VS EV cars is vastly different. A modern IC car fire rarely evolves to the point that the fuel in the tank is an issue and most are quickly extinguished. A battery fire is a whole lot more serious and complicated to extinguish.

That did not appear to be the case in the several ICE car fires I have seen .

 

[gadfly56]

That did not appear to be the case in the several ICE car fires I have seen .

Can you expand on that? Circumstances, degree of damage, propagation to other vehicles, open air or garage structure...

 

[electrofelon]

Granted it's a small sample size but I have seen two car fires, and and a third was a close friend's but I did not see it. One of the ones I saw was on the side of the interstate: huge intense roaring fire completely engulfed. I don't remember if the fire department was not there yet or they just decided to let it burn. The second one I can't remember where it was and also don't recall whether the fire department wasn't there or they just decided to let it burn out but I don't recall seeing any extinguishing attempts. My friend's car was a F-150 we had just driven across country a few months prior. It completely burned to bare metal in the parking lot of a bar. Certainly ice and battery fires are different but I just disagreed with the statement that ICE fires are easily extinguished. Again, I admit my sample size is low but they sure were intense fires.

 

[Fred B]

AFA ice fires vs EV fire, the ratio on the road might play a role in sheer numbers but like @electrofelon indicated I too have seen a number of ICE fires that quickly overtook both the vehicle and surrounding structure. Seen road surfaces melted under the vehicle on the highway and most if nobody was in the vehicle most time it was let to burn out, but most times the fire dept. too far from the fire to do much about it before it totally burned out the vehicle. One ICE fire just recently took out the garage, and the 2 vehicles inside and another outside total loss and a fourth was significantly damaged. Yet there has not been any screaming to ban ICE as a fire hazard.

One source indicating statistics related to ICE vs EV per sold, EV fires appear to occur less frequently than ICE vehicles, with 25.1 fires for every 100,000 vehicles sold compared to 1,529 fires for ICE vehicles.

Electric Vehicles in Focus, Part III: Electric Vehicle Fire Risk

Electric vehicles appear to be less of a fire risk than conventional vehicles, but they may still introduce novel hazards to people and property.

core.verisk.com

 

[ruxton.stanislaw]

AFA ice fires vs EV fire, the ratio on the road might play a role in sheer numbers but like @electrofelon indicated I too have seen a number of ICE fires that quickly overtook both the vehicle and surrounding structure. Seen road surfaces melted under the vehicle on the highway and most if nobody was in the vehicle most time it was let to burn out, but most times the fire dept. too far from the fire to do much about it before it totally burned out the vehicle. One ICE fire just recently took out the garage, and the 2 vehicles inside and another outside total loss and a fourth was significantly damaged. Yet there has not been any screaming to ban ICE as a fire hazard.

One source indicating statistics related to ICE vs EV per sold, EV fires appear to occur less frequently than ICE vehicles, with 25.1 fires for every 100,000 vehicles sold compared to 1,529 fires for ICE vehicles.

Electric Vehicles in Focus, Part III: Electric Vehicle Fire Risk

Electric vehicles appear to be less of a fire risk than conventional vehicles, but they may still introduce novel hazards to people and property.

core.verisk.com

1.5% of cars catch on fire? That is higher than I would have thought.

 

[retirede]

1.5% of cars catch on fire? That is higher than I would have thought.

If I read the stat correctly, it’s percent of cars sold in the time period, not of the entire population.

 

[Joe.B]

Dad was driving down the road, nothing out of the ordinary. Truck started to lose power so he pulled over, car behind him pulled up and shouted at my dad "get out, your truck's on fire!" Dad, his dog, and his wallet made it out in time thankfully.

I know that doesn't add to the conversation, but I'm sharing anyways...

 

[gadfly56]

1.5% of cars catch on fire? That is higher than I would have thought.

Car & Driver did a review of this, and there's more smoke and mirrors than there is smoke and fire. The NTSB and NHTSA don't track the data claimed by AutoinsuranceEZ, the parent source of this statistic.

Between 2013 and 2017 there were 117,400 car fires annually. Total car population in 2018 was 261,037,752. The annual rate of fires was 0.04%.

No, Millions of Cars Are Not Catching Fire Every Year

A New York Times story about U.S. car fires references a study that gets the frequency wrong by a factor of at least 60.

www.caranddriver.com

This, of course, doesn't really add to the question of what quarantine or fire-fighting methods folks here have seen in parking garages.

 

[drcampbell]

How does EV charging differ from hundreds of vehicles each filled with 30 gallons of gasoline?

Fear of the unknown. Gasoline has been ubiquitous for a hundred years. You can see it, smell it, touch it. If it leaks, you know it. Firefighters have developed techniques for extinguishing gasoline fires; the FMVSS has evolved to prevent gasoline fires, and underwriters have a claims history to base premiums on.

Not just EV charging; a substantial number of people regard electricity itself as a mysterious branch of voodoo.

We had a spectacular car fire at the Woodward Avenue Dream Cruise (of street rods and antique vehicles) a few years back. This car had the battery relocated to the rear and an aftermarket electric fuel pump installed, apparently without a crankshaft-speed (or position) sensor. Something in the engine compartment caught fire, there was a fuel leak under the hood, the battery and fuel pump weren't damaged right away, the fuel pump kept on pumping, and the entire fuel load burned. The paint, rubber, glass, fabric & trim were entirely gone and the hulk was covered in bright-orange rust, the kind that usually doesn't appear until it has been out in the weather for decades.

 

[LarryFine]

Fear of the unknown. Gasoline has been ubiquitous for a hundred years. You can see it, smell it, touch it. If it leaks, you know it. Firefighters have developed techniques for extinguishing gasoline fires; the FMVSS has evolved to prevent gasoline fires, and underwriters have a claims history to base premiums on.

Electricity was feared when it was new, also.