EV's in Parking Garages

[jim dungar]

Have you seen this Tesla battery burning underwater?
https://www.theautopian.com/watching-a-tesla-model-x-burn-underwater-is-baffling/

The article is pretty good with describing the battery issues.

 

[mtnelect]

Today in Southern California, a pallet storage yard caught on fire that is located under the freeway. The concrete pillars have melted away leaving the rebar exposed. Wondering what damage, a car fire would have on a concrete garage structure ?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yep. Sprinklers are good for cooling things down and limiting the spread of fires.

The thing is I think most places parking structures are not even required to have sprinklers at all. Which is not a bad bet on things since parking structures tend to be largely made of non combustible materials.

But normal sprinklers will just make lithium battery fires worse.

That would be true if the batteries used elemental lithium, but only primary (non-rechargeable) batteries use elemental lithium.

Water does not make a lithium-ion battery fire worse, in fact it is probably the only why there is any change of stopping the battery fire is to cool the cells that are involved enough to prevent additional cells from becoming involved. Water can help with that, but the challenge is getting the water to the cells and that is almost impossible with the car batteries. The current fire fighting recommendation is to let them burn out while protecting any exposures...something that would be very difficult to do in a garage.

As far as sprinklers, I think every parking garage I have been in in the Chicago area has fire sprinklers.

 

[texie]

Is halon an effective battery extinguisher? Maybe something on-board?

Oh, Larry, I think, like me, we are on the older side. Halon is a thing of the past. Just kidding but I get your point.

 

[LarryFine]

I'm 68.5, so that qualifies as older.

If this is an issue, maybe there should be on-board extinguishers of some kind.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is some work being done in Europe for a battery design with internal water channels and an exterior connection for the fire department so that the cooling water can get to where it needs to be. No idea of how long before something like that is in production models.

 

[hbiss]

Trying to find a video I saw of a front end loader picking up a burning EV and dumping it over the side of like a three story parking garage.

Maybe a front end loader and operator should be required on stand by at every parking garage that offers EV charging.

-Hal

 

[drcampbell]

Batteries in confined spaces are not a new hazard.

USS Scorpion (SSN-589) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/pdfs/why_the_scorpion_was_lost_updated_august_2018.pdf

FMVSS 301 puts a limit on how much fuel can leak during & after a crash (one liter in the first 30 post-crash minutes, iirc) to reduce deaths and injuries caused by post-crash fires. Seems reasonable to add a provision there for EVs, for the same reason.

https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812038

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Trying to find a video I saw of a front end loader picking up a burning EV and dumping it over the side of like a three story parking garage.

Maybe a front end loader and operator should be required on stand by at every parking garage that offers EV charging.

-Hal

Most don't have enough height to let that happen.

 

[mtnelect]

Most don't have enough height to let that happen.

How about a permanently stationed tow truck in every garage that has a charger ... drag them out in chains !

 

[LarryFine]

How about a permanently stationed tow truck in every garage that has a charger ... drag them out in chains !

An electrically-powered tow truck, of course.

 

[Flicker Index]

How does EV charging differ from hundreds of vehicles each filled with 30 gallons of gasoline?

-Hal

Lithium ion accidents is most likely to occur while being charged, which usually happens unattended and they burn differently. Recall a salvage yard having to dig out a grave for a wrecked Tesla at a salvage yard that caught fire, and kept catching back on fire after it was put out? https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/...n-rancho-cordova-high-end-vehicle-scrap-yard/

 

[Birken Vogt]

It's not that it keeps catching fire, it is that all those cells will be getting thermal damage and shorting themselves out and releasing energy one by one in a cascading fashion. And then the surrounding material will be burning and there may be no way to stop it because they are all packed in so dense. It is not so much a putting out the fire problem as it is a stopping the cascade problem. The fire is the symptom.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It's not that it keeps catching fire, it is that all those cells will be getting thermal damage and shorting themselves out and releasing energy one by one in a cascading fashion. And then the surrounding material will be burning and there may be no way to stop it because they are all packed in so dense. It is not so much a putting out the fire problem as it is a stopping the cascade problem. The fire is the symptom.

As far as I know there is no way to put out the battery fire once the cells are in thermal runaway....the only thing we can do it try to provide enough cooling to stop the cascade issue...something that is very difficult to do with EVs as there is no access point to put the cooling media where it needs to be.

 

[GoldDigger]

As far as I know there is no way to put out the battery fire once the cells are in thermal runaway....the only thing we can do it try to provide enough cooling to stop the cascade issue...something that is very difficult to do with EVs as there is no access point to put the cooling media where it needs to be.

Which is why a system like the Coldcut (TM) Cobra will become standard for fire departments. And why the built in cooling channels (akin to a fire department externally fed dry sprinkler system) are being considered.

 

[gadfly56]

There is some work being done in Europe for a battery design with internal water channels and an exterior connection for the fire department so that the cooling water can get to where it needs to be. No idea of how long before something like that is in production models.

OK, so who's going to bell the cat while the battery pack is cooking away? I'm thinking you'd need one of those aluminized thermal suits you see once in a while. And hope the connection and water channels haven't been compromised by the crash.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Which is why a system like the Coldcut (TM) Cobra will become standard for fire departments. And why the built in cooling channels (akin to a fire department externally fed dry sprinkler system) are being considered.

Maybe for some large city departments, but very unlikely for the small rural departments around me.
As far as I know there is no work being done on the cooling channels for EVs in the US.

 

[gadfly56]

Which is why a system like the Coldcut (TM) Cobra will become standard for fire departments. And why the built in cooling channels (akin to a fire department externally fed dry sprinkler system) are being considered.

I watched the video, and given the volume of water delivered before changing wands/tanks, I'm marking this one as "not ready for prime time". Not to mention, I'm sure you would have to penetrate multiple barriers. That door looked like a standard interior Luan-faced door. Not that much of a challenge. I'm open to other arguments.

 

[retirede]

Maybe for some large city departments, but very unlikely for the small rural departments around me.
As far as I know there is no work being done on the cooling channels for EVs in the US.

I’ve never seen a parking garage in a small, rural area.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I’ve never seen a parking garage in a small, rural area.

There are lots of small departments that cover the fringes of the big cities. The City of Peru, about 15 miles from me with a population of just over 10,000 has a 3 story one for their downtown area.