EV's in Parking Garages

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
There are lots of small departments that cover the fringes of the big cities. The City of Peru, about 15 miles from me with a population of just over 10,000 has a 3 story one for their downtown area.
I know we are getting way off the OP here, but I have to chuckle at the term rural in this context. For example, in Wyoming I can count one one hand the number of towns/cities large enough to have a multi level parking garage. :)
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I watched the video, and given the volume of water delivered before changing wands/tanks, I'm marking this one as "not ready for prime time". Not to mention, I'm sure you would have to penetrate multiple barriers. That door looked like a standard interior Luan-faced door. Not that much of a challenge. I'm open to other arguments.
The tank in the standard stand-alone kit is indeed small, but published experiments I have seen referred to indicate that with proper training and protocol an EV battery fire can be extinguished with well under 100 gallons.
But their recommended installation is integrated with a full size or compact fire vehicle using its onboard water tank. The limiting factor is the size of the abrasive tank.
They have published gallons per foot of cut against two thicknesses of steel plate.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The tank in the standard stand-alone kit is indeed small, but published experiments I have seen referred to indicate that with proper training and protocol an EV battery fire can be extinguished with well under 100 gallons.
But their recommended installation is integrated with a full size or compact fire vehicle using its onboard water tank. The limiting factor is the size of the abrasive tank.
They have published gallons per foot of cut against two thicknesses of steel plate.
OK, I'll go so far as to say, "that's interesting." I'll have to have a look-see.
 

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
There's a bigger incident history from light format EVs, also know as scooters.
In particular the wave of non UL direct from overseas scooters.


In short "bike" parking needs to be as fire resistant as "car" parking these days.


Gas cars have their own problems.
Hyundai and Kia have been plagued by fire problems since 2015. The Center for Auto Safety successfully petitioned U.S. regulators to seek recalls in 2018 and says on its website that the automakers have recalled more than 9.2 million vehicles for fires and engine problems, not including the recalls announced Wednesday. More than two dozen of the recalls involved over 20 models from the 2006 through 2021 model years.

In addition, NHTSA is investigating 3 million vehicles made by the automakers from the 2011 through 2016 model years. NHTSA says it’s received 161 complaints of engine fires, some of which occurred in vehicles that had already been recalled.

In June 2018, NHTSA said it had received owner complaints of more than 3,100 fires, 103 injuries and one death. Hyundai and Kia were fined by NHTSA in 2020 for moving too slowly to recall vehicles that were prone to engine failures.


State of the art for EV fires now includes thermal blankets. These don't put out the fire, but they greatly starve it of oxygen, and get the temperatures down.
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Those scooters have no thermal management of the battery to speak of. When an EV is charging, any thermal anomaly detected in any cell will interrupt the charging. Those scooters just keep cooking.
 
The problem with EVs catching on fire is not a problem the electrical code can solve. I can only imagine the conflagration that will one day occur in a parking garage with hundreds of EVs that catch on fire because one of them does and it spreads. At present there is nothing that will stop the spread of the fire and for the most part automatic water sprinklers make it worse. The fire dept cannot stop it either so a single car fire could easily take down any building. The only real answer is not allowing EVs in a parking garage. Even if the chance of any individual EV catching on fire is pretty small, the way large numbers works means it will happen some day and it will take down a building.

With IC engines, a fire in one car can be readily extinguished and do minimal damage to the rest of the vehicles or the structure.
Do you have any evidence or professional documentation of all that or are you just stating what seems logical to you?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
There's a bigger incident history from light format EVs, also know as scooters.
In particular the wave of non UL direct from overseas scooters.


In short "bike" parking needs to be as fire resistant as "car" parking these days.


Gas cars have their own problems.



State of the art for EV fires now includes thermal blankets. These don't put out the fire, but they greatly starve it of oxygen, and get the temperatures down.
The battery chemistry has enough oxygen to continue to support combustion, but the thermal blankets can greatly reduce the exposure issues.
 

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
Those scooters have no thermal management of the battery to speak of. When an EV is charging, any thermal anomaly detected in any cell will interrupt the charging. Those scooters just keep cooking.
Certainly an issue is fake UL or no-UL scooters directly imported or transferred.
Here's another scooter fire for motivation.

New York City took unilateral action on this, requiring every scooter sold in the City be at least UL certified.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I thought I'd give an update on my own inquiries.

Siemens is holding a webinar for its dealers tomorrow and I'll be tuned in.

My boss told me that the sprinkler side of things is moving at relative warp speed for NFPA. They're talking about limiting parking structures to free-standing and bumping the hazard class from ordinary to high. All parking garages will be sprinklered. Right now, many require only a dry standpipe. Eventually there will be a separate standard for parking garages.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Just how will they be able to enforce that?
Several possible ways, but none of them perfect.
Inspect retail stores that sell them.
Search for and crack down on anyone in the city who is advertising them.
Harder part would be going after online sellers, but with an effort they could probably get Amazon not to take orders for delivery to NYC addresses.

Reducing the number has a positive effect even if it isn't perfect.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Just how will they be able to enforce that?
Especially since on manufacturer of e-bikes listed to the safety standard says that less than 15% of the e-bikes sold in the US meet the product safety standards.
Then there is also the issue of repairs using batteries and chargers that have not been evaluated for use with that bike and probably not evaluated for use with anything.
 

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
Then there is also the issue of repairs using batteries and chargers that have not been evaluated for use with that bike and probably not evaluated for use with anything.
And the issue of physical damage to battery packs, that's never repaired.
This is why I advise my apartment owner clients to fire harden the "bike room" and supply charging ports there, where a fire can be better contained.
 
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