Exceptionally high utility bill.

[kwired]

Just had an employee for a customer this morning ask why his electric bill almost doubled this month, electric water heater, heat pump……that threw up the first red flag. Probably heat pump crapped out, emergency resistance heat cutting on. Unfortunately, the op said gas heat, so it’s not that easy of find for his problem.

Might just been cold enough the heat pump ran a lot more than usual, but not so cold the backup heat was called on or not called on much?

Some cases the HVAC guys put a lockout thermostat on the outdoor unit so that it automatically switches over to backup heat when outdoor ambient is low enough the heat pump is no longer that efficient.

 

[hillbilly1]

Might just been cold enough the heat pump ran a lot more than usual, but not so cold the backup heat was called on or not called on much?

Some cases the HVAC guys put a lockout thermostat on the outdoor unit so that it automatically switches over to backup heat when outdoor ambient is low enough the heat pump is no longer that efficient.

Usually the thermostat will make that choice if it’s a smart stat. A lot of HVAC systems have built in compressor lockouts from the factory when the ambient temp gets too low.

 

[kwired]

Usually the thermostat will make that choice if it’s a smart stat. A lot of HVAC systems have built in compressor lockouts from the factory when the ambient temp gets too low.

Maybe a regional/distributor kind of thing? I never seen one factory installed, was always an add on, and the HVAC guys never seemed to be able to figure out how to wire them so I ended up doing it.

 

[hillbilly1]

Maybe a regional/distributor kind of thing? I never seen one factory installed, was always an add on, and the HVAC guys never seemed to be able to figure out how to wire them so I ended up doing it.

Could be, I’ve always seen it on the factory wiring diagram when troubleshooting, did not look like it was added after it was built.

 

[hbiss]

I just had someone talking today about hearing people complaining that their ConEd bills being over $1000 when the normal is around $200. I assumed here that the OP CHECKED THE BILL FOR THE ACTUAL CONSUMPTION AND COMPARED IT TO PREVIOUS MONTHS instead of just looking at the dollar amount. Many bills will give you a monthly graph of the last years usage with the current month shown so you can compare. With many power companies you can also check your hourly usage on-line for any given period. This should be the first thing to do rather going on a wild goose chase.

-Hal

 

[tom baker]

I had the electrical service replaced for a large barn where my granddaughter lived
It was an 30+ year old pole service, the panel in the barn was newer.
After the service panel was replaced they saved $300 a month. A short or something?
The electrical bill had always been high, it fed a large 2 car garage, well pump, and 50x100 ft shop.

 

[tom baker]

I just had someone talking today about hearing people complaining that their ConEd bills being over $1000 when the normal is around $200. I assumed here that the OP CHECKED THE BILL FOR THE ACTUAL CONSUMPTION AND COMPARED IT TO PREVIOUS MONTHS instead of just looking at the dollar amount. Many bills will give you a monthly graph of the last years usage with the current month shown so you can compare. With many power companies you can also check your hourly usage on-line for any given period. This should be the first thing to do rather going on a wild goose chase.

-Hal

I agree, our POCO has a nice bar chart that shows the monthly consumption for the last year. Our gas utility shows the heating degree days to make it easy to compare gas consumption with that.

 

[hbiss]

Our gas utility shows the heating degree days to make it easy to compare gas consumption with that.

Here, ConEd is both electric and gas. For both electric and gas they plot the average temperature on the same graph. As I said, we have smart meters, and I can go to my account and see the hourly usage for any day.

It's not just us. I know the guys at the water department, and they constantly get complaints about high bills. Seems that's all people know how to do. They can go on-line and see their hourly consumption to see where the problem is. If there is consumption at three o'clock in the morning, there is a toilet running or somebody has a prostate problem.

-Hal

 

[hillbilly1]

Here, ConEd is both electric and gas. For both electric and gas they plot the average temperature on the same graph. As I said, we have smart meters, and I can go to my account and see the hourly usage for any day.

It's not just us. I know the guys at the water department, and they constantly get complaints about high bills. Seems that's all people know how to do. They can go on-line and see their hourly consumption to see where the problem is. If there is consumption at three o'clock in the morning, there is a toilet running or somebody has a prostate problem.

-Hal

We have the self reporting smart meters, but our local poco does not allow access to the data, just the total for the month. Many years ago when I did plumbing and electric, I had a call to a lawyers house, their water bill had skyrocketed, and they were blaming the city. The water meter leak detector clearly shown a leak even though the main was off in the house. The old lawyer’s wife said “I just had that waterline replaced a couple of years ago, I know it’s not bad!” Dug it up at both ends, it was a rusted out galvanized water line that had been there for probably 50 years! House was built in the late 1800’s.

 

[ptonsparky]

My shop water usage is low. Restroom only. Rate is very low as well. Village guy stopped and told me we were using about 2000 gal per month. Still was less than $40 IIRC.

 

[hillbilly1]

My shop water usage is low. Restroom only. Rate is very low as well. Village guy stopped and told me we were using about 2000 gal per month. Still was less than $40 IIRC.

I wired an ice plant, and the plant shut down for a couple of months to add three new ice makers, upgrade the controls and larger ammonia compressors. While we were out there, the city came out and replaced the water meter twice. Turns out, they went from using tens of thousands of gallons a month, to a couple of hundred. They thought the meter was broken! LOL!

 

[drcampbell]

I've frequently heard of that happening after a house was insulated.

 

[Fred B]

While not sure long term effect of repairs I did to loose connections will be on metering or usage but prior to repair definitely had imbalance and "leakage?" L1-L2-N didnt add up prior, but after metering on feeder mains L - 5.6A, L2 - 2.4A, N - 3.2A, G - 0A without 240 loads. Water heater was pulling 18.6A on L1,L2, and 0A on N,G. Had plug in heater turned on and it had 11.6A for a 1450watt heater, 0A to G.
A couple of other readings not sure if it has any impact. Highest voltage seen on residential here 251V L-L, another reading came across hadn't seen other than from generator use but sure if it is the new meter tolerances, had only 59Hz.

 

[kwired]

While not sure long term effect of repairs I did to loose connections will be on metering or usage but prior to repair definitely had imbalance and "leakage?" L1-L2-N didnt add up prior, but after metering on feeder mains L - 5.6A, L2 - 2.4A, N - 3.2A, G - 0A without 240 loads. Water heater was pulling 18.6A on L1,L2, and 0A on N,G. Had plug in heater turned on and it had 11.6A for a 1450watt heater, 0A to G.
A couple of other readings not sure if it has any impact. Highest voltage seen on residential here 251V L-L, another reading came across hadn't seen other than from generator use but sure if it is the new meter tolerances, had only 59Hz.

High line to line volts (for service volts) is a POCO problem not something on site. Usually their regulation devices stuck on wrong tap for the loading conditions or if manually operated nobody has changed it when necessary. I once had about 270 volts at my place one time because of this, 251 is only just beginning to be high. 252 is only 5% above 240 nominal and generally considered acceptable.

 

[winnie]

We have the self reporting smart meters, but our local poco does not allow access to the data, just the total for the month.

I bet those smart meters are actually transmitting all of this usage data in the clear. With a cheap receiver you could access it, as well as the hourly readings for all of your neighbors.

I posted this in 2016, I bet things have changed:

Decoding smart meter transmissions.

There appear to be different types of smart meter, and different utilities have implemented different protocols. I have not done extensive research into this, only enough to receive data from the meter mounted on my home. The hardware that I am using is known as an RTL-SDR. These are very...

forums.mikeholt.com

 

[romex jockey]

Any thoughts for further exploration?

Hi R event Fred

~RJ~

 

[Fred B]

So back to fix the split (forked) and cut off/missing neutral conductors in disconnect panel. Shut off main and noticed meter still spinning although very very slowly. Measured below main and got 0V. I also found 1.8V ground to earth, and .08A on the GEC with main breaker off. Also found what as appears to be N/G bond at both the disconnect and meter. Not sure any of this would make the meter to spin even when main off. Called POCO and they claim its not their equipment but didn't come out to check it. Meter and disconnect are back to back. Seems to me maybe a short in the meter, or between meter and disconnect, but very little conductor length between the two, under 3ft and in conduit.

 

[ptonsparky]

You need a really good amp clamp to measure .08 Amp and have any degree of accuracy or faith in its reading.
What is ground to earth? Did you use a low impedance meter?
I've understood that a POCO meter will generally fail in favor of the customer not the utility but that info could have come from a rascally meter reader.

 

[kwired]

You need a really good amp clamp to measure .08 Amp and have any degree of accuracy or faith in its reading.
What is ground to earth? Did you use a low impedance meter?
I've understood that a POCO meter will generally fail in favor of the customer not the utility but that info could have come from a rascally meter reader.

Mechanical meter probably very much true.

Electronic meters, IDK.

 

[ptonsparky]

Mechanical meter probably very much true.

Electronic meters, IDK.

I'll admit that is dated!