Exceptionally high utility bill.

[synchro]

If this is a mechanical meter, perhaps its braking magnet is not providing sufficient drag on the disk and it's allowing the disk to spin too quickly. The POCO would be responsible for the meter's accuracy, but it sounds like they are denying this might be an issue?

 

[Fred B]

You need a really good amp clamp to measure .08 Amp and have any degree of accuracy or faith in its reading.

What is a really good meter? The one I'm using supposed to have a decent tolerance according to mfg. Been looking for a new one for a while with features needed and specifications with high tolerance, everytime I find something the reviews stink.

What is ground to earth? Did you use a low impedance meter?

One probe on the GEC the other literally in the dirt. I suppose this could be simply NEV imposed from another source other than this meter given breaker is off. But anyway NEV would cause the meter to spin?

I've understood that a POCO meter will generally fail in favor of the customer not the utility but that info could have come from a rascally meter reader.

Maybe, anytime I've called about a meter issue and if meter not spinning they'll show up in minutes. But if, like this, meter doesn't stop, they don't care. Will be calling the engineer I know at the POCO to ask him about their meters.

If this is a mechanical meter, perhaps its braking magnet is not providing sufficient drag on the disk and it's allowing the disk to spin too quickly. The POCO would be responsible for the meter's accuracy, but it sounds like they are denying this might be an issue?

This is an older analog type meter.

 

[ptonsparky]

I thought they would be higher than this: https://www.amazon.com/General-Technologies-Corp-CM100-Current/dp/B001TCWL1E

IDK how "good" it is but it does have the range.

A barely turning meter will not result in a high bill, unless the POCO multiplier is wrong entirely.

 

[winnie]

A barely turning meter will not result in a high bill, unless the POCO multiplier is wrong entirely.

But if it is barely turning when it should be stationary that might indicate excessive turning when it should be moving. Eg the braking magnet idea in post 41.

Jon

 

[winnie]

Just to clarify, known large resistive loads such as the water heater cause the meter to spin rapidly but in an expected way, but when the suspect circuits (bedroom and bathroom) are on the meter spins rapidly in an unexpected way?

Jon

 

[kwired]

It usually takes quite a few spins just to raise your energy bill by a penny though. People get a little too worked up about these meters spinning. Must be associating it to the old mechanical meters at the fuel stations?

 

[winnie]

At 10 cents per kWh and a meter constant of 3.6 (watt hours per rotation) it takes 28 rotations per cent. But if you live near me (24 cents per kWh) and have a meter constant of 7.2, then it is 6 rotations per penny.

Jon

 

[Jraef]

I don’t do much residential any more, but lately during COVID I have been helping out neighbors to determine if they need an electrician when they can’t get anyone to come out for months. Most of the time I get called (word of mouth) because of extreme jumps in electric bills.

TWICE in the past 2 years I have found temperature/pressure relief valves on electric water heaters that are leaking. Years ago we would just connect them to a tube going straight down to the floor, so you would immediately know that it was leaking. But now they plumb them directly to the drain line, so the only thing you see is a high electric bill from all that hot water going right down the drain. The quick check is to touch the drain line about 2 feet downstream of the valve. If it’s hot, the valve is leaking.

 

[retirede]

I don’t do much residential any more, but lately during COVID I have been helping out neighbors to determine if they need an electrician when they can’t get anyone to come out for months. Most of the time I get called (word of mouth) because of extreme jumps in electric bills.

TWICE in the past 2 years I have found temperature/pressure relief valves on electric water heaters that are leaking. Years ago we would just connect them to a tube going straight down to the floor, so you would immediately know that it was leaking. But now they plumb them directly to the drain line, so the only thing you see is a high electric bill from all that hot water going right down the drain. The quick check is to touch the drain line about 2 feet downstream of the valve. If it’s hot, the valve is leaking.

A leaky hot water faucet can have the same effect. Many people will ignore it. Of if they have a bathroom they rarely use….

 

[hbiss]

But now they plumb them directly to the drain line

I don't think that's legal!

Years ago we would just connect them to a tube going straight down to the floor

This is the proper way. If the water heater is located in a living area or otherwise where water can cause damaged, it must sit in a pan that will catch any leaks or the relief valve operating. The pan is then drained to a drain line through a trap.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

I don't think that's legal!


This is the proper way. If the water heater is located in a living area or otherwise where water can cause damaged, it must sit in a pan that will catch any leaks or the relief valve operating. The pan is then drained to a drain line through a trap.

-Hal

And is guaranteed not to overflow when the time comes it is needed, right?

That trap magically will never dry out and allow sewer gas into the house with no use either.

 

[hbiss]

And is guaranteed not to overflow when the time comes it is needed, right?

That trap magically will never dry out and allow sewer gas into the house with no use either.

Actually, many jurisdictions do not allow connection to the sanitary waste for the reason you mention. So, it would have to be run outside like AC or boiler condensate.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Actually, many jurisdictions do not allow connection to the sanitary waste for the reason you mention. So, it would have to be run outside like AC or boiler condensate.

-Hal

an air gap device in line should be acceptable though

 

[wwhitney]

UPC requires the T&P discharge "through an air gap into the drainage system or outside of the building."

Searchable platform for building codes

Explore a searchable database of US construction and building code. Code regulations are consolidated by state and city for easier navigation.

up.codes

IPC seems to require "an air gap located in the same room as the water heater" and then "Discharge to the floor, to the pan serving the water heater or storage tank, to a waste receptor or to the outdoors."

Chapter 5 Water Heaters: Water Heaters, Colorado State Plumbing Board Plumbing Code 2018 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Smart Electrons]

I've run into something similar.

Pedestal feeds mobile home, plus has additional breaker. Everything in the mobile checks out okay. But the additional breaker in the pedestal feeds a well pump. Pump has started to go bad. Still pushing enough water so that the residents don't know anything is wrong, but runs continuously, 24/7 with a 3/4 HP submersible pump at the bottom of the well. That can cost a LOT over a couple months.

 

[drcampbell]

Ran into a similar thing when I was doing energy management.
"Go see what's wrong with this building", my boss says. (I'm a student intern at the time) The only symptom: excessive electric bill. Demand charges and energy charges are both WAY higher than previous years. It's a ~20-story office tower.

A big centrifugal chiller (hundreds of horsepower) was running 24/7. The VAV boxes are doing what they can to throttle down, but they each have a minimum-flow setpoint. It's cold in the building and there's a portable space heater under almost every desk.

 

[kwired]

I've run into something similar.

Pedestal feeds mobile home, plus has additional breaker. Everything in the mobile checks out okay. But the additional breaker in the pedestal feeds a well pump. Pump has started to go bad. Still pushing enough water so that the residents don't know anything is wrong, but runs continuously, 24/7 with a 3/4 HP submersible pump at the bottom of the well. That can cost a LOT over a couple months.

Is that a pump gone bad or a control gone bad? Or maybe there is enough water demand it doesn't ever stop? Broken pipe somewhere makes it never stop? My experiences with these is there is not much warning it is going bad and suddenly it isn't working at all. If impeller is worn out and it never shuts off because it can't produce enough pressure to reach setpoint, that may still cause excess energy use, but at same time it probably is running at a lesser load level than if the impeller were in good condition.

 

[retirede]

Is that a pump gone bad or a control gone bad? Or maybe there is enough water demand it doesn't ever stop? Broken pipe somewhere makes it never stop? My experiences with these is there is not much warning it is going bad and suddenly it isn't working at all. If impeller is worn out and it never shuts off because it can't produce enough pressure to reach setpoint, that may still cause excess energy use, but at same time it probably is running at a lesser load level than if the impeller were in good condition.

I’ve seen a case where the pipe had a fairly big leak down in the well. Pump ran almost continuously at full flow. With all taps closed, it would take something like 15 minutes to get up to pressure and shut off. Homeowners finally realized the flow and pressure in the house wasn’t what it should be. More water was dumping back into the well than delivered to the house.

 

[kwired]

I’ve seen a case where the pipe had a fairly big leak down in the well. Pump ran almost continuously at full flow. With all taps closed, it would take something like 15 minutes to get up to pressure and shut off. Homeowners finally realized the flow and pressure in the house wasn’t what it should be. More water was dumping back into the well than delivered to the house.

I guess there is many possibilities but that one might be a little rare, especially if it was enough to significantly raise electric bill yet not have much noticeable other effects. Some people however might notice less pressure/flow yet don't have it checked out.

 

[gadfly56]

Is that a pump gone bad or a control gone bad? Or maybe there is enough water demand it doesn't ever stop? Broken pipe somewhere makes it never stop? My experiences with these is there is not much warning it is going bad and suddenly it isn't working at all. If impeller is worn out and it never shuts off because it can't produce enough pressure to reach setpoint, that may still cause excess energy use, but at same time it probably is running at a lesser load level than if the impeller were in good condition.

Might be the air bladder is going bad, or a leak on the water side of the bladder going off to a drain.