Experiments

[FionaZuppa]

Doubt it- as long as you are not tempering with equipment.

... or trespassing in their xyz (3D) space

For the arguments presented, if i covered my home in a very reflective (FM band) material and the reflection of that signal was causing standing wave issue for the transmitter, that's not my problem because my deployed control is to keep their shiat out of my home, etc.

I think for the most part, if people can harvest power from overhead power lines w/o trespassing, then i see no legal recourse for the poco.

Two good reads:
https://learnemc.com/magnetic-field-coupling
https://learnemc.com/electric-field-coupling

 

[Eddie_T]

A new wrinkle what if one lived in an area served by SWER and harvested the step voltage near the ground rod?

 

[mivey]

Seems like saying it's illegal to receive a radio transmission.

Radio is put out as for free (well, paid for by other revenue means anyway). POCO does not use the same revenue model.

Does it actually cost the POCO any more when energy is collected this way?

Yes. There is conservation of power so no power can be removed without the POCO having to replace it.

 

[mivey]

No question that energy used this way costs the POCO in lost revenue, presuming the light would be used by the farmer either way.

My question is whether there is an actual increase in electricity supplied to the transmission line for energy harvested this way.

Or is this just intercepting power that would otherwise be wasted in capacitance to the earth, causing no real increase in power used?

Capacitance is a stored energy system and returns the energy stored in the prior period.

Removing power to provide useful work removes energy that is not returned.

 

[mivey]

Ok. You build a water pipeline. It passes through my land. I have a pond on my land that before your pipeline was built averaged five foot deep in the middle of summer, but since you built your pipeline, averages twenty feet deep and overfills a bunch, keeping a stream throughout the year instead of just in rainy season... but you do all maintenance upon your pipeline and I have nothing to do with it.
so now you decide I owe you for the extra water your pipes must be supplying me with? If I have no connections at all to your pipeline?

That is basically what you are saying concerning the power... it somehow leaks enough to supply me wirelessly yet I am supposed to pay for it if it supplies me wirelessly..kinda like saying that people living beside a drive in should pay for the movie every night..

Not the same. When you built a circuit to link the flux you have tapped the power line.

 

[mivey]

My thought is the energy lost to the ground is partially dissipated in the fluorescent tube, as an experiment it could be tested in principle with a van de Graaf. A parallel line I am not sure about, but suspect it would be acting as a transformer.

The energy lost in the ground has some redeeming value in that the ground serves as an additional conductor.

Your George Foreman grill has no redeeming value for the other rate payers, unless we all get to come over for free hamburgers!

 

[mivey]

My question is whether the energy consumed is additional energy taken from the line or a reduction in the energy otherwise lost.

It is additional energy taken.

 

[mivey]

So the addition of the series resistor increases the power consumption by almost 15 times???

And with no increase in current?


That still doesn't tell us where the intercepted power comes from, or where it otherwise goes.

You are not intercepting power. You are causing an increase in power consumption.

 

[mivey]

So you are saying that the electricity is a radio signal being kept within the cables but that the signal is able to be monitored by the power company for losses or for users... so that unlike the radio station that has no idea who is receiving the signals unless, like in Britain, they drive up and down the road with sniffer vans to see is any reception equipment in your home... they know at the production plant that hey, someone is using power that should not be... and that the meters are just their way of collecting for the production of the signal?
hmm... but, if one has generators and solar on site producing ones own power, how then could they prove the signal theft did or did not come from that site?

Given this is theoretical anyway that one could somehow capture the signal that got out of the cables?

The energy does not travel in the wire. The energy travels in the surrounding electromagnetic field.

The wires act like a wave guide controlling the direction from source to a particular destination. A radio signal radiates everywhere or maybe somewhat directional depending on the antenna.

 

[mivey]

Ah, but they do. The metal structures/towers/pylons that hold up power lines do in fact couple and eddy currents will form in the towers, these currents will heat the structure, thereby that is real wasted power. If the towers were say big/heavy/hard plastic then there would not be wasted power in the structure. I bet ya that the impedance the source sees changes depending on tower type/design and how many there are.

Perhaps the power lines should be wrapped in mu metal :lol:

I dont like the leaking water example, in that case its always leaking, and you taking it makes no diff to the source. With power lines, if you purposely couple to their magnetic field and place a power load on the coupling, then you are impacting their source.

Now, I am 100% for telling poco to keep their shiat out of my backyard, whether it be their trucks, poles, or their magnetic fields.:thumbsup:

You are free to live in an area without modern conveniences. Have fun. Some people actually enjoy being off the grid. I like my A/C.

 

[mivey]

190105-2038 EST

I want to know where are the power distribution lines from which I am supposed to harvest any substantial amount of power?

Ar my home the flux level at earth, about 20 ft below a 3 phase delta, the flux level may read as high as 40/20,000 = 2/1000 gauss, 2 milligauss. That is 40 microvolts from a coil of probably a 1000 turns or more. Coil diameter is hard to estimate, but OD is less than 1.3". Some of the reading can be high frequency noise. Coil output voltage is K*N*df/dt.

At 60 Hz the coil calibration is 20 mV/gauss.

I need to take some measurements near HV lines.

.

I can calculate the field strength at distance for a given structure configuration and voltage.

 

[mivey]

All energy dies a heat death, but some is hard to measure. Would the farmer's cattle absorb more or less energy than the ionization of mercury vapor in the tube?

If everyone turns on a radio at the same time will there be a current spike at the transmitter power supply?

Not all energy dies a heat death. If I use it to elevate a mass it does not. If I use it to store energy in a molecular bond it does not (like manufacturing a product or similar). Some energy gets converted into other than thermal energy.

 

[Eddie_T]

Not all energy dies a heat death. If I use it to elevate a mass it does not. If I use it to store energy in a molecular bond it does not (like manufacturing a product or similar). Some energy gets converted into other than thermal energy.

I think the physics prof meant that given what she was teaching (heat, light and sound) whichever realm it was in when it died it was a heat death. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed a heat death is when the energy becomes so dispersed that it can no longer be used to produce work. Can you extract energy from your molecular bond to perform work, if so it is not dead? When you elevate a mass there is no energy there unless some energy is available to move or release it, so it is potential energy and upon release becomes kinetic energy, but it cannot be used to raise itself to the same level so eventually . . . .

 

[GoldDigger]

Not all energy dies a heat death. If I use it to elevate a mass it does not. If I use it to store energy in a molecular bond it does not (like manufacturing a product or similar). Some energy gets converted into other than thermal energy.

But the concept of the heat"death" of the universe is based on the fact that every time energy is transformed from one form to another or heat energy moves from one place to another the universe gets irreversibly closer to a uniform temperature.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[mivey]

Doubt it- as long as you are not tempering with equipment.

The no-touch defense does not work. If you inductively couple to the line you have made an illegal tap.

 

[mivey]

I think the physics prof meant that given what she was teaching (heat, light and sound) whichever realm it was in when it died it was a heat death. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed a heat death is when the energy becomes so dispersed that it can no longer be used to produce work. Can you extract energy from your molecular bond to perform work, if so it is not dead? When you elevate a mass there is no energy there unless some energy is available to move or release it, so it is potential energy and upon release becomes kinetic energy, but it cannot be used to raise itself to the same level so eventually . . . .

There is energy stored in the gravitational field.

 

[mivey]

But the concept of the heat"death" of the universe is based on the fact that every time energy is transformed from one form to another or heat energy moves from one place to another the universe gets irreversibly closer to a uniform temperature.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I hope it settles around 70F as that is a good all-around temperature.

 

[Eddie_T]

But the concept of the heat"death" of the universe is based on the fact that every time energy is transformed from one form to another or heat energy moves from one place to another the universe gets irreversibly closer to a uniform temperature.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Yup.

 

[LarryFine]

I spoke with my EE friend about this quite a bit and, without going into detail, we came to the conclusion that some of the energy absorbed by new load is intercepted from existing loss pathways, and some is taken from the power line. The proportion depends on relative position in space and the relative "impedances" of the various pathways.

Picture a steel bar held a given distance from a bar magnet, and you insert another piece of steel between them. What happens to the lines of flux through the original steel bar? Do they increase, or is some of the existing flux redirected to the new steel? We concluded that the answer is some of each, and feel the electric field behaves similarly.

We also believe that fluorescent tube doesn't light from electrical current inside, but from the phosphors being directly excited.

 

[mbrooke]

The no-touch defense does not work. If you inductively couple to the line you have made an illegal tap.

What law would they cite though? If you live under a HV line, I can't see anyone taking an antenna on your property seriously. I know you are right, but I am wondering on my part of the exact verbiage.