Explain NECA pricing to me?

[Whale Rage Forever]

I buckled down and purchased the 2023-2024 NECA MLU. For the most part I'm pretty sure I understand it but there are a few discrepancies.

Is this intended just to derive the labor time? The labor units seem to be pretty spot on. I made up a few jobs to determine the labor time and it always came out roughly to what I would expect for the time to take.

I ask because I don't see how the NECA MLU could be used to determine materials cost. Is material cost still just a matter of actual cost+tax+markup?

Examples of neca pricing online are FEW and FAR BETWEEN. The only example I could really find was here:

https://www.lorisweb.com/CMGT235/DIS22/PPT22_Electrical%20Material.pdf

and their numbers made no sense to me.

As far as I can tell, if I wanted to use the NECA MLU, it seems like I would still have to compile the cost of materials and then use the neca time estimation multiplied by my hourly rate. Given that the biggest time sink in estimating for me is determining the current cost of materials, this doesn't ultimately save me much time in the estimating process.

Does anyone have a resource or advice for gaining a more in depth understanding of the intended/common usage of the NECA MLU?

 

[ramsy]

Is material cost still just a matter of actual cost+tax+markup?

Since all 3 of those vary greatly, it was my understanding each contractor builds their own BOM.

 

[mtnelect]

I subscribe to "Trade Service Publications" monthly updates to stay on top of the pricing at the wholesale level. Then use that information to globally update my "Flat Rate Price Book" that I have created in "QuickBooks". No labor & material charges just specific packages to charge.

 

[Fred B]

As far as I can tell, if I wanted to use the NECA MLU, it seems like I would still have to compile the cost of materials and then use the neca time estimation multiplied by my hourly rate. Given that the biggest time sink in estimating for me is determining the current cost of materials, this doesn't ultimately save me much time in the estimating process.

The NECA MLU is just another step toward getting a total estimate. First is once you have your list of materials and qty that then transfers to the NECA labor calc as each item has a per unit value of labor time. I have spread sheet that takes each item then adds item cost per unit and a Labor unity per item unit together for a total estimate per item that then gets totaled together.
One shortcoming of the NECA MLU is when innovative new products are being called for the manual may not have a listed labor unit for the specific product. That is where having hands on the product and experience dealing with it would get you closest to actual time it would take to install. The estimator would be well served by talking to the installer to get input for time needed for such product.

Does anyone have a resource or advice for gaining a more in depth understanding of the intended/common usage of the NECA MLU?

I will lots of time limit my use to unfamiliar tasks that haven't done often enough to have a good feel on time use for installation. Also useful as a comparative analysis of actual time and industry standard time in evaluating my workers efficiency or how close to my actual labor time is to industry standard.

Word of caution in using the NECA MLU is you must account for every fitting, screw, device, hole, etc., or you will be getting an estimate way short and loosing money. Ex: running EMT you will have clamping, supports, couplers, connectors, and bending that all have separate time units. So 200ft of EMT is likely not just one LU but many components LU's, every bend, offset, connector, clamp needs to be added together to get a total labor price for 200ft of EMT.

 

[NoahsArc]

I haven't used NECA exactly, just a proprietary-but-close set (and currently a cheap book that's probably in the same ballpark).
I've heard many people say NECA numbers are a bit overcooked by about 25%. If you figure they include material handling, maybe they're fine then.
As @Fred B says, you must include everything.
The best way to handle that is to create assemblies of common installs and use that.
These assemblies can get quite specific based on means of support and location.
eg. [size] EMT run in [rack, off rods, off beam clamps, in metal studs, in wood studs, through wood joists, in concrete, in ground, etc] with [ss | comp] fittings. There's dozens of combinations right there, just for one trade size of one type of raceway. We haven't even gotten into what's inside the pipe yet...
And you need to build all those.

So a 1" EMT run off rods in a 12-15ft pan ceiling with ss fittings is something like (using my book) per ft:

0.04 - 1ft 1" EMT
0.006 - (1) coupling (I'm going with 1/7th the standard rate for all this, which is local quirk)
0.008 - (1) batwing & rod & Z clip & shot [guessing at a number here]

And then at box points you have:
0.14 - (2) 1" connectors
0.15 - (1) 11B deep
0.17 - (3) batwing & rod & Z clip & shot

And then add in wire you're pulling through, plus applicable terminations and devices at the jboxes.
And don't forget difficulty modifiers, and any and every other modifier you can imagine, there are many. If you're on scissors lifts or tall ladders, you have to add so many % to the entire run. Something like 25-50%

You can also do some aspects simply, eg, a "fixture assembly" within an office that includes relevant 1/2" EMT or MC. If you know that in a given installation that every troffer will have say 4ft on average of MC, and 1/3rd of a 1900 box, you can average that out and save yourself a lot of trouble estimating the entire complexity of each room.

Again, software handles that for you, just click an assembly, click on the uploaded prints, it's very nice to have for larger jobs. Overkill for smaller.

Something like that. I don't know what a one month subscription would be, but maybe it's worth it just to copy all their assemblies down and not reinvent the wheel. Their numbers are probably a bit more accurate than NECA's anyway, which are used more often in my experience for T&M change orders (as they're overcooked)

(my experience with estimating courses is that you're far better off just getting a software package and learning its ropes for a few weeks, then transferring that to your own spreadsheet system if you don't want to keep up a subscription)

 

[MBElectric]

The NECA MLU is just another step toward getting a total estimate. First is once you have your list of materials and qty that then transfers to the NECA labor calc as each item has a per unit value of labor time. I have spread sheet that takes each item then adds item cost per unit and a Labor unity per item unit together for a total estimate per item that then gets totaled together.
One shortcoming of the NECA MLU is when innovative new products are being called for the manual may not have a listed labor unit for the specific product. That is where having hands on the product and experience dealing with it would get you closest to actual time it would take to install. The estimator would be well served by talking to the installer to get input for time needed for such product.


I will lots of time limit my use to unfamiliar tasks that haven't done often enough to have a good feel on time use for installation. Also useful as a comparative analysis of actual time and industry standard time in evaluating my workers efficiency or how close to my actual labor time is to industry standard.

Word of caution in using the NECA MLU is you must account for every fitting, screw, device, hole, etc., or you will be getting an estimate way short and loosing money. Ex: running EMT you will have clamping, supports, couplers, connectors, and bending that all have separate time units. So 200ft of EMT is likely not just one LU but many components LU's, every bend, offset, connector, clamp needs to be added together to get a total labor price for 200ft of EMT.

Curious what software you use to keep track of your own actuals? Running through the same exercise of trying to understand my true hours and leverage the industry standards for runs at a new project.

 

[AC\DC]

how are you getting jobs if you are using NECA labored. Those labor unites Are so outrageous. If I lost one arm then I would be at that speed

 

[ramsy]

how are you getting jobs if you are using NECA labored.

Because NECA clients don't use hacks that increase hazards, and void insurance, without permits.

 

[Strathead]

There are several ways for your estimate to have accurate material pricing. As one person mentioned, Trade Service is one. Another is Epic. The third is Netpricer. As others have said, NECA pricing is actually high if you use it with all the caveats in the front. Plus time involved with doing an estimate longhand would kill me today. I recommend you get a reputable estimating program. DM me and I will recommend a couple to demo, but not here because I would just trash one of the most used ones. I highly recommend using a combination of either Trade Service, or Epic with Netpricer from your favorite supplier if possible. Netpricer, actually uses a direct link to your supplier and the "over the counter" prices they charge you for items, then Trade Service or Epic, fills in the items that aren't in the Suppliers matrix. Al done with current pricing. The estimating program will usually have NECA labor rates along with their proprietary ones.

 

[NoahsArc]

@Strathead
I used TradeService at a previous job, and it was a good program. Not sure I could really recommend the takeoff suite we used (Accubid Classic), but it did get the job done and came with competitive labor units out the box.

 

[Strathead]

@Strathead
I used TradeService at a previous job, and it was a good program. Not sure I could really recommend the takeoff suite we used (Accubid Classic), but it did get the job done and came with competitive labor units out the box.

Accubid is arguably the best estimating software, but it is also the most expensive. When you are doing huge projects, especially ones with multiple floors and typical room layouts, the features of their top product can't be beat.

 

[NoahsArc]

Accubid is arguably the best estimating software, but it is also the most expensive. When you are doing huge projects, especially ones with multiple floors and typical room layouts, the features of their top product can't be beat.

Yeah, but no dark mode, and lots of lag and janky responses from the program (I have a high end computer, it's the software's issue 100%). I haven't used other high end suites, all I know is that one was a frustrating experience I'm glad to be done with.

It is very powerful, though, and while the automated outlet reader function wasn't perfect, you could definitely get a very large job done in short order with it altogether. I could do 40,000sqft takeoffs in a day. But you'll get carpel tunnel and actual eye cancer after doing that for a month 9-5.