Failed inspections

[roger]

* As far as the firewall is concerned, this shows that there us much more to the job of an EC other than NEC compliance. In this case, the firewall was breached more than 36" above the finished floor which is a violation of the firewall requirements, including the insurance carrier through Factory Mutual. The penetration had to be removed, sealed and placed below the 36" mark to comply. This is a true firewall, not at fire rated partition, a free standing firewall.

Please show us this in writing. I challenge you to find anything in the UL Fire Resistance Directory that supports this and further more, this would mean all the mechanical systems would have to be installed at floor level. :roll:


Now, it seems you're already back tracking and adding info as the members challenge your statements so you should start over and add all pertinent information so we can all see what your actually complaining about.

If you are throwing local rules out there be sure to let us know.

Roger

 

[ivsenroute]

NEPA

I only work as an employee for 1 municipality but I own an inspection agency and do inspections and plan review in about 16 other muni's. I only get paid in both situations when there is a permit pulled so taxes have nothing to do with me.

Jim W in Tampa, great post!

 

[Paelectrician]

NEPA

I only work as an employee for 1 municipality but I own an inspection agency and do inspections and plan review in about 16 other muni's. I only get paid in both situations when there is a permit pulled so taxes have nothing to do with me.

Jim W in Tampa, great post!

Do you do work around Pittsburgh?

 

[ivsenroute]

Do you do work around Pittsburgh?

No I do not. Other end of the state NEPA

 

[ivsenroute]

Firewall performance and engineering is underwritten primarily by Factory Mutual who provides insurance for large corporations and buildings. When you perform an installation, you must abide by the insurance requirements of your customer. This is why you will find this information spec'd out in the stamped, sealed prints.

Again, not everything you need to know is in the NEC. If you live and die by the NEC alone you will never have enough knowledge to be competent on commercial and industrial jobs. Multiple NFPA manuals, I-Codes, UL books, ASTM requirements, ANSI requirements and job specs are needed to perform a proper installation.

This is directly from Factory Mutual.

1. Pipes, conduit and cables (regardless of size) penetrating MFL firewalls should be positioned to pass through the wall as close as practical to, but no more than 3'-0" above the finished floor level. A steel sleeve with a 1-inch clearance should be left around the pipe or conduit, to be filled with an approved fire-resistive pipe or cable sealer with a 3-hour fire rating. It is preferred that mesh reinforcement be provided in the horizontal joints above and below pipes in concrete block walls and that all cores of the concrete block immediately adjacent to pipe penetrations be filled with concrete. Pipe and conduit should not penetrate the wall in clusters. If more than one pipe penetrates the wall in the same area, the pipes should be spaced at least three times the larger pipe diameter on center. Exposed cable with combustible insulation should be wrapped with a fire-resistive tape for at least 3'-0" on each side of the wall.

The 3 foot rule has been in place for years. I first came across it when performing work at a Sears warehouse in 1991 and most recently on another project for Diapers.com who is taking over a recently built warehouse. This is common knowledge in the insurance and construction industry as these walls are designed to remain standing and the building on either side can collapse. Even the type of anchors are regulated.

 

[zbang]

Now, it seems you're already back tracking and adding info as the members challenge your statements so you should start over and add all pertinent information so we can all see what your actually complaining about.

I dunno about that. If you read the original "complaint" outside it's context, all sorts of things seem wrong. Instead of trying to knock 'em down, about about looking for the situations where they do apply- and I'm sure they all apply to something.

And with that- Merry Xmas or other winter holiday of choice.

 

[ivsenroute]

Please show us this in writing. I challenge you to find anything in the UL Fire Resistance Directory that supports this and further more, this would mean all the mechanical systems would have to be installed at floor level. :roll:


Now, it seems you're already back tracking and adding info as the members challenge your statements so you should start over and add all pertinent information so we can all see what your actually complaining about.

If you are throwing local rules out there be sure to let us know.

Roger

This is a list of items that I can recall very easily and can probably provide 100x as many. This is a basic list with no local codes, all NEC and other applicable codes such as IRC, IBC, NFPA 72, ANSI 117.1, etc.

They were all legit issues in the application that they were installed. If you want me to write a novel then I can pull old files and give all of the particulars.


It appears as though thread complaining about inspectors are popular but when the shoe is on the other foot it might hurt a little.

We are all in this together and have to work together. I learn something new every single day and I teach someone something new every single day.

Like I always say: The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

There is no backtracking but I can see by your comment on firewall that you have some more to learn about fire separation. The UL is only a small part of the whole picture. Your reply appeared to be a little cocky for a moderator.

 

[electricmanscott]

Forgot to run any wire or boxes for smoke detectors.
.

What does this have to do with an electrical inspection.

Sounds like somebody got a lump of coal in their stocking today.

 

[electricmanscott]

Failure to bond CSST and/or other gas pipe properly
.

What NEC rule requires me to bond either of these at all?

 

[ivsenroute]

What does this have to do with an electrical inspection.

It is an issue when the IRC applies and they were on the approved prints that the EC bid on.

They are required to be hard wired therefore they are part of the electrical inspection. Maybe I should not say anything then wait until the final inspection for the building and tell them they are missing. This way they can fish them in and open the drywall where they can't.

 

[electricmanscott]

It is an issue when the IRC applies and they were on the approved prints that the EC bid on.

They are required to be hard wired therefore they are part of the electrical inspection. Maybe I should not say anything then wait until the final inspection for the building and tell them they are missing. This way they can fish them in and open the drywall where they can't.

Not all of your rules apply to everybody.

Where I am smoke detectors are required. If I don't install them it is the fire department and the building department that would have a problem with that. This is not an NEC issue.

Also why is it your business what the contactor bid on? Since when does an electrical inspector enforce a bid spec?

More importantly, I don't know what is bothering you but something clearly is.

 

[roger]

Firewall performance and engineering is underwritten primarily by Factory Mutual who provides insurance for large corporations and buildings. When you perform an installation, you must abide by the insurance requirements of your customer. This is why you will find this information spec'd out in the stamped, sealed prints.

Again, not everything you need to know is in the NEC. If you live and die by the NEC alone you will never have enough knowledge to be competent on commercial and industrial jobs. Multiple NFPA manuals, I-Codes, UL books, ASTM requirements, ANSI requirements and job specs are needed to perform a proper installation.

This is directly from Factory Mutual.



The 3 foot rule has been in place for years. I first came across it when performing work at a Sears warehouse in 1991 and most recently on another project for Diapers.com who is taking over a recently built warehouse. This is common knowledge in the insurance and construction industry as these walls are designed to remain standing and the building on either side can collapse. Even the type of anchors are regulated.

I have no idea who Factory Mutual is and frankly don't care and with that said, please point us toward where we can find this wall type. When the design (contract documents) gives us a UL wall type a UL penetration listed in the Orange books is all I care about.

An insurance company can tell a customer what they want but it is not a recognized code, standard, or rule here.

Whether you see it or not, what you are telling us must be a local rule.

Roger

 

[iwire]

* NEC compliant may not cut it if the job was designed and stamped by an EE as required in PA for commercial jobs. If you deviate from the stamped/approved plans, you must submit your change in writing for approval from the EE and AHJ. This is a state law for code compliance, not something in the NEC. Don't' forget, the NEC supplements and is part of a larger code picture.

And don't forget you're state is just one of 50, here inspectors do not enforce specifications.

* If the calculated load is 318A and you run 500 aluminum for a 400A service, there is a problem.

Agreed, but you did not say that.

* If your calculated load is 318A and the ul label on the 2 gang meter is 200A total then there is a problem.

Yes, but if the calculated load is 200 and they happen to use two 200 amp panels for space all is good.

* 12/2 between smokes is overkill which is not a problem but since it is not 3 wire it is a problem.

The directions with many smokes allow 2 wire NM between them and a class 2 wire for the interconnect.

* Answering a question or two to clarify and issue is one thing. Asking me 10 questions such as "What size conduit do you want? Should I use SE or put it in conduit? How many receptacles should I put on circuit #2? How far apart do you want the ground rods? Where do I need to put the smoke detectors? What size wire should I run to the motor? These are some that I hear which are fine by themselves but not when i suspect that i am designing the job for you.

No one has said you should design the job for the EC, but that is really not what the tone of your first post had. Your first post had a 'don't bother me' tone.

 

[roger]

This is a list of items that I can recall very easily and can probably provide 100x as many. This is a basic list with no local codes, all NEC and other applicable codes such as IRC, IBC, NFPA 72, ANSI 117.1, etc.

You are close but not overall correct, only addopted codes are applicable to a given area.

They were all legit issues in the application that they were installed. If you want me to write a novel then I can pull old files and give all of the particulars.

The application they were installed in is very relevant to your complaint or citation, so even though a novel isn't neccessary more info is.

It appears as though thread complaining about inspectors are popular but when the shoe is on the other foot it might hurt a little.

I wasn't part of that thread.

We are all in this together and have to work together. I learn something new every single day and I teach someone something new every single day.

Like I always say: The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

I think most of us live by that.

There is no backtracking but I can see by your comment on firewall that you have some more to learn about fire separation. The UL is only a small part of the whole picture. Your reply appeared to be a little cocky for a moderator.

Sorry, but I understand firewalls, barriers and partitions very well and have invested a lot of money in the applicable matterials to back up what I say and I would ask that you provide the back up to your claims if you are indicating that they are nation wide rules.

Roger

 

[iwire]

It appears as though thread complaining about inspectors are popular but when the shoe is on the other foot it might hurt a little.

This was 100% predictable and why my first post asked if you where sure you wanted to do this and offered a quiet way out of it.

 

[ivsenroute]

I think that this thread is important enough to respond the many of the concerns.

These code violations that I listed were legitimate in my area because of the other codes that apply along with most of them which were clearly NEC violations.

1) I understand that all of the codes don't apply in all areas. The I-Codes are in 50 of the states to some degree or another and they certainly apply. The bottom line is that they did apply where I am and the ECs clearly don't understand their job responsibility.

2) Just cause they don't apply in your area does not mean that they won't in the future. Every single State Governor signed on to comply with aggressive energy requirements with the federal government which in most cases resulted in the adoption of the IECC. If you are an electrician, you must also know the IECC because either applies now or will.

3) If you live and die by the NEC, you are limiting your knowledge and it will get you into trouble at some point. This thread is not about the NEC alone but how everything ties together. I am hoping that many of you will or already realize that.

4) You better understand the insurance requirements because that is how many of the plans are designed and approved by the engineers and architects who have meeting with the underwriters to clarify issues. You should be building exactly to the approved prints. I would love to see you violate the firewall requirements and hold up a job because it is in the NEC and you are too ignorant to understand the whole picture.

Your world may not fit my world or the world of the majority of the states in the union but those that do work in these states have learned quickly that the NEC alone does not get the job done. For some reason there is a mentality that the code inspector is there for NEC compliance only and nothing can be further from the truth.

Here is an example from a few months ago:

As always, the blueprints stated in the electrical section that the installation is to be compliant with the NEC 2005 and all other applicable codes.

The EC installed IAW the NEC 2005 only. He passed the electrical inspection with another inspector who does electric only.

I was asked to come in and do the energy inspection which includes section 505 of the IECC. The lighting failed and the electrician had to rewire all of the lights and change some of the fixtures on their own dime because they did not take the time to ask what other codes applied and did not understand the other codes. This cost the EC thousands of dollars in man hours and material changes.

The world does not revolve around the NEC by itself. it is part of a larger picture and only part of the puzzle.

If it does not apply in your area then ignore it, no reason to comment on something that does not apply.

 

[ivsenroute]

Roger,

Since you are from NC, you should know that the IECC applies in NC, which includes section 505 electrical requirements. There have been some amendments which are listed here:

http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/Documents/2009_NCBuildingCode_amendments/proposed/2009NCEnergyConservationCode_amendments.pdf

 

[Volta]

I agree with the substance of your comments in OP. A lot people do poor quality work. Period. Glad that a lot of it gets noticed and fixed.

On the other hand, it would be nice to see Factory Mutual's definition of 'should'.

Firewall performance and engineering is underwritten primarily by Factory Mutual who provides insurance for large corporations and buildings. When you perform an installation, you must abide by the insurance requirements of your customer. This is why you will find this information spec'd out in the stamped, sealed prints.

Again, not everything you need to know is in the NEC. If you live and die by the NEC alone you will never have enough knowledge to be competent on commercial and industrial jobs. Multiple NFPA manuals, I-Codes, UL books, ASTM requirements, ANSI requirements and job specs are needed to perform a proper installation.

This is directly from Factory Mutual.

1. Pipes, conduit and cables (regardless of size) penetrating MFL firewalls should be positioned to pass through the wall as close as practical to, but no more than 3'-0" above the finished floor level. A steel sleeve with a 1-inch clearance should be left around the pipe or conduit, to be filled with an approved fire-resistive pipe or cable sealer with a 3-hour fire rating. It is preferred that mesh reinforcement be provided in the horizontal joints above and below pipes in concrete block walls and that all cores of the concrete block immediately adjacent to pipe penetrations be filled with concrete. Pipe and conduit should not penetrate the wall in clusters. If more than one pipe penetrates the wall in the same area, the pipes should be spaced at least three times the larger pipe diameter on center. Exposed cable with combustible insulation should be wrapped with a fire-resistive tape for at least 3'-0" on each side of the wall.

The 3 foot rule has been in place for years. I first came across it when performing work at a Sears warehouse in 1991 and most recently on another project for Diapers.com who is taking over a recently built warehouse. This is common knowledge in the insurance and construction industry as these walls are designed to remain standing and the building on either side can collapse. Even the type of anchors are regulated.

We have 4 'should's, 1 'should not', and 1 'preferred'.

Not a 'shall' in the mix.

Just nit-picking though, good thread.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
* Clarification, installing ELECTRIC baseboard heat below an existing receptacle.
...

That is not always true...there are low temperature electric baseboard heaters that do not have that restriction. They are rare, but they exist.

 

[iwire]

If it does not apply in your area then ignore it, no reason to comment on something that does not apply.

But that is not how the forum works, you come here to forum populated with electricians pretty much slamming them and they are going to respond. That is human nature. IMO you have been coming across as 'holier than thou' and that will always end up getting responses.

You're statements about FM do not seem to ring true and instead of proving they are you give Roger a hard time for asking questions about it. I do know who FM is, we have built fire testing facilities for them. We wired the buildings featured here http://www.fmglobal.com/page.aspx?id=04010100


That said they do not write codes and do not know of anyplace their recommendations have been adopted as law of the land.