Failed inspections

[nhfire77]

The inspectors posting in this thread remind me of cops I know that are a bit too into enforcing the Letter of the Law, with no common sense for the spirit of the law. Of course there is no direct correlation but...

We are supposed to be working together, but the "Holier than thou attitude" (yes it is perceived that way whether you deny it or not) is really counterproductive.

Actually, I'd be wary and upset with you as an inspector, not respectful and eager to cooperate as it should be. I believe we need to foster mutual cooperation or its not going to work. The OP is a sign of the opposite.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Since we don't have state licensed ECs, we are behind the 8ball with communication.

Only about 3 municipalities in our area has a testing procedure for their license. The rest of the dozens of munis have nothing. State registration is only proof of insurance.

I can break this down even further:

1 of the cities that licenses has not only a testing procedure but also requires CEUs in order to renew your license. Education is the key.

The other, although has a good testing procedure for journeyman and master, does not require CEUs.

At the IAEI meetings and training seminars, we are loaded with ECs who need credits. These ECs are primarily from the city that requires CEUs.

I have 4 groups of people that I inspect:

1) Has a legit license that involved testing and must attend CEU's to maintain the license. This group is the best performer for code compliance and knowledge. Very few deficiencies on inspections and always up to date on most issues.

2) Has a license that required testing but may not have ever attended a class since they dont need CEUs. This group is good but lacks the up to date knowledge that the group with CEU requirements has.

3) The EC who has not tested and stays out of the cities that require a license. They may have a local license or state registration but they have been under the radar and have a multitude of excuses why they never got their license in one of the local cities that has a program. This group typically learns by failing inspections and is more inclined to ask 20 questions before they bid a job or call for an inspection.

4) DIY's. Once in a blue, and I mean very blue moon, someone actually has some sort of a clue.

So not all of us are inspecting in areas where there is a state license and ceu requirements. This system does not work well and is in need of repair. This is probably why we get so many phone calls to ask how to do something.

I envy the inspectors who work in states or areas where the majority of ECs are educated and up to date.

I can only sympathize since I live and work in a state that has a license requirement for 40 plus years. IMO your state truly has the cart in front of the horse. How can anyone expect code enforcement to work when there is no formal training expected for the trades. You have stated that the violations you have listed are not local codes. How can this be if you have no formal code adoptions. Every city and or muni has there on set of rules taken piecemeal from other codes. If PA has no license requirement how can they hope to have educated contractors? The path of least resistance is always followed. Human nature. No license requirement for contractors,how about certification requirement for inspectors? I believe you when you say no license req. It just blows my mind that there isn't.

 

[busman]

in response to the OP, that main bond screw not installed or just stuck in the hole drives me insane that is on of my repeat failures, i got to the point i did not care if the contractor was on site and wanted to fix it he failed.

I throw that "cheesy" green screw away (just to irritate inspectors) and install a wire between the ground and neutral bars.

Mark

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Changes are made everyday to approved drawings. It's called value engineering. In some places someone will ask for new drawings showing the changes. In some places they will not since they're only inspecting what the code requires. It not likely that there's one rule that will cover all of the work performed in all 50 states.

Also called as-builts, we would record/draw in any changes. To me, "value engineering" is the overall cheapening of the job,mostly by GC's

I agree, 100% but these are things that drive you nuts with inspectors. There are many good ones and many clowns, the same with electrical contractors. I can see the frustration on both sides.

Yes Virginia, tee off an inspector once (in any trade), and you have an enemy for life...as I have discovered the hard way....every job after the initial confrontation will have more and more wailing and gnashing of teeth until eiether the AHJ or the EC gives.
The OP is correct about the way all of the other codes, especially NFPA come into play in commercial work. Just lay some MC on top of any sprinkler pipe...

 

[iwire]

Also called as-builts, we would record/draw in any changes. To me, "value engineering" is the overall cheapening of the job,mostly by GC's

Where we are that is usually required by the customer not the GC, the GC has no authority to 'cheapen' the job without the owners approval on substitutions and changes.

 

[electricmanscott]

Also called as-builts, we would record/draw in any changes. To me, "value engineering" is the overall cheapening of the job,mostly by GC's



Yes Virginia, tee off an inspector once (in any trade), and you have an enemy for life...as I have discovered the hard way....every job after the initial confrontation will have more and more wailing and gnashing of teeth until eiether the AHJ or the EC gives.
The OP is correct about the way all of the other codes, especially NFPA come into play in commercial work. Just lay some MC on top of any sprinkler pipe...

The first part is just silly. Coming up with an alternative to a job that is overkilled by an engineer who isn't paying the bills is good customer service. Can you give us an example of what you see as "cheapening the job"?

If you choose to follow an inspectors will like a sheep that's fine... for you. I will and have taken my chances wiring to actual codes not I the I like it this way method.

If you follow the NEC you would'nt be laying mc on a sprinkler pipe to begin with.
And who the heck is Virginia?

 

[roger]

Where we are that is usually required by the customer not the GC, the GC has no authority to 'cheapen' the job without the owners approval on substitutions and changes.

Same here.

If a GC were to ask for VE suggestions it would be at the customers request and usually at the A/E's dismay.

Roger

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I am entering this post very late but as an inspector I am interested in what other inspectors find as repeat transgressions of the code. I once tried to create a seminar on this very topic as a CEU seminar for EC's in my state but was turned down for being overly broad.

As for failing things beyound our scope I don't fail them. I point it out to them and inform the contractor that the appropriate inspector will be failing this on thier visit to the site. I know as an inspector my job makes me a pain in the ass but the earlier we bring a problem to the contractors attention the easier it is to deal with. I have often heard from contractors horror stories where nothing was said until the finished work was done, the concrete poured or the building was built.

As an inspector it is much easier to have open communication with all contractors both good and bad to facilitate the smoothe progression of work in a code compliant manner. I would not be such a good inspector as I think I am if it was not for the electrical contractors eagerly showing me my errors so that I may improve. So thank you to all who have ever corrected me.

Also any changes in a approved fire penetration would require approved documentation by the designer where I inspect.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I can only sympathize since I live and work in a state that has a license requirement for 40 plus years. IMO your state truly has the cart in front of the horse. How can anyone expect code enforcement to work when there is no formal training expected for the trades. You have stated that the violations you have listed are not local codes. How can this be if you have no formal code adoptions. Every city and or muni has there on set of rules taken piecemeal from other codes. If PA has no license requirement how can they hope to have educated contractors? The path of least resistance is always followed. Human nature. No license requirement for contractors,how about certification requirement for inspectors? I believe you when you say no license req. It just blows my mind that there isn't.

It is the lack of education that leads to the violations. If the electrician is not qualified lets not blame the state. If they pay for reinspects they will start reading the NEC or pay for lessons 1 at a time.
A license is a joke in the state of FL. Here all that is needed is a master to pull the permit. The men doing the work do not need any license. And yes that means many jobs have violations and inspectors can't catch all of them.

 

[Microwatt]

Fire wall

Fire wall

Would this "true firewall" be the same as an occupancy seperation? Like the one between an "I" occupancy and a "B" occupancy.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Would this "true firewall" be the same as an occupancy seperation? Like the one between an "I" occupancy and a "B" occupancy.

No,occupancy separation is usually one or two hour "rated" walls. What the op is refering to would be 4 hr construction that extends from the floor all the way thru the roof deck. Ideally you could burn one side with minor damage to the other side. You would not penetrate this wall ordinarily. I would think with proper design this would be a rare occurence.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Not neccessarly it depends on the building codes that apply are you talking about a seperation of different occupancies or seperations in a mixed use building? There are other issues that maybe involved including wether your using the IBC or not. There are fire seperation, fire partitions and fire walls. A fire wall goes from the foundation to or possibly through the roof depending on design.

 

[mayjong]

interesting thread.
let me just say to the electricians out there-
as an inspector, the non-code related "corrections" that i have seen given by other inspectors DRIVE ME CRAZY, too!!!

 

[ivsenroute]

Would this "true firewall" be the same as an occupancy seperation? Like the one between an "I" occupancy and a "B" occupancy.

No, not what this is about. In what you stated above only a 1 or 2 hour fire rated assembly would be needed depending on whether or not the buildings were sprinklered.

 

[mayjong]

ha, ha!!!
hey , i just realized who the OP is...
if he posted some of his pics (please do!) you would all understand his posts (and complaints) mo' better!!!

 

[Umlaut]

ha, ha!!!
hey , i just realized who the OP is...
if he posted some of his pics (please do!) you would all understand his posts (and complaints) mo' better!!!

Until your post, I thought this was a pretty productive thread, despite the charged subject and opportunity for personal disagreement. Is it appropriate to cast aspersions without basis or explanation, or is it something you do just to make yourself feel better?

 

[mayjong]

umlaut-
wha???
saying i know who the OP is is "casting aspersions" ???
again, WHA???

i simply asked the OP to post some of the pics of "work" he has taken, to better explain why he is complaining. i'm sure we all would be quite entertained...
not that i need to explain myself...

 

[prh1700]

My Dad was the electrical inspector in one of the counties here and had an incredible working relationship with the contractors. He had set aside time in the mornings and again in the afternoon when he returned to the office dedicated to answering phone calls. He had a complete NFPA library in the office that he encouraged contractors to use. I guess because he came up through the ranks working with his tools, and being a Master licensed electrician helped too. Tough but fair without the "holier than thou" attitude was how I heard contractors speak of him when I was in the supply houses and that was without them knowing who I was. I say all that to say this....There is a great relationship to be had. EVERYBODY is trying to get a job done, and is busy. By the way, my boss made the mistake of giving me a small convience store to wire in dads county. Only time I ever got to work in that county...The only words he said to me was something like "No one will ever say you had it easy here"....

 

[LarryFine]

The only words he said to me was something like "No one will ever say you had it easy here"....

"He" Dad or "he" the boss?

 

[bdarnell]

Would this "true firewall" be the same as an occupancy seperation? Like the one between an "I" occupancy and a "B" occupancy.

Here's a good reference on MFL walls. We deal with these all the time in commercial tilt-up construction. http://www.pdhonline.org/courses/g130/g130.htm

I agree that the AHJ has every right to enforce the firestopping requirements, the penetration height is an FM requirement. If it is not followed, the customer likely won't get through the insurance audit and could possibly fail to get insured.

Cheers