Federal Pacific Panels

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jemsvcs

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A home inspector in my area (north ohio) has been telling buyers that the federal pacific panels in the homes they are buying should be replaced as a condition of the purchase. While I don't see many of these panels anymore, I have heard that there have been some problems with these panels in the past. However, i'm not sure if there are documented hazards with these panels or if this just the inspectors 'opinion'.

Does anyone know if there were any recalls, etc. for these panels or any other documented problems?

Thanks,
Jemsvcs
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

I stop short of calling FPE panels and breakers a hazard, even though I believe they are. I encourage customers with FPE panels to do their own net search on the brand.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Thanks.

Alot of the websites refer to "Stab-Lok" FPE Panels as the ones with all the problems. Is that to say there were other panels that were ok?
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

I have heard the same complaints about FPE myself, and I wonder the same thing. I don't see FPE equipment very often where I live so I don't have any experience with it.

So I will play devil's advocate:


Is the stuff really that dangerous? I have a hard time believing that a breaker will not trip with a dead short, a charge that is often leveled against FPE breakers.

I think that just because some FPE stuff may have been bad does not mean that all of it is bad. How does one know if their particular FPE equipment is "bad?"


And finally as a sidenote, I'm hesistant to trust the same inspect-ny site that levied accuations against Ideal Purple wirenut that Ideal denied.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Originally posted by peter d:
Is the stuff really that dangerous? I have a hard time believing that a breaker will not trip with a dead short, a charge that is often leveled against FPE breakers.
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Well, you can believe that much. I have been the unwilling witness to one of those events. Some FPE breakers would make excellent "welding breakers".
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Originally posted by mdshunk:
Well, you can believe that much. I have been the unwilling witness to one of those events. Some FPE breakers would make excellent "welding breakers". [/QB]
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An FPE breaker in a Ford Pinto would be interesting too :D

I made the mistake once of telling a client that THEIR FPE panel was probably OK. I pulled the breakers, inspected everything and didn't see anything unusual. No corrosion, no bent stabs, etc. I told her that while I had read a lot of complaints, I had not personally seen problems.

Later that afternoon as I was adding a new outlet for her, I realized I had not turned off the breaker before making my 50' basement crawl (I hate when that happens). I thought "what the heck, I'll just cut the wire and it will trip the breaker (OK, admit it, you've done that if you had an old pair of cutters with you).

Well, when I cut into the wire, I had an instant welder. it arced like nothing I'd ever seen. AND THE BREAKER STILL DID NOT TRIP. The wire actually became the fuse and the arcing stopped. Not a happy experience.

I went back to the client and said absolutely, positively she had to change the panel.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Ok, I better butt in on this topic. I have a customer who has called me back for another job. They want me to install a 50A spa sub-panel. Here's the catch, it's an FPE panel. The local big orange store has breakers that fit FPE panels, and even has a couple 2-pole 50A breakers in stock. Is it safe to assume a new breaker will work properly?

I'm not really sure what to do here. Any advice?
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

A home inspector in my area (north ohio) has been telling buyers that the federal pacific panels in the homes they are buying should be replaced as a condition of the purchase
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These guys like to run things up the flag pole to see if they'll fly. In effect, what they end up doing is planting a seed in the buyer's mind to make them believe that they have a real dangerous situation and (of course) to give the buyer the best possible house for the lowest possible price. An inspector tried this when we sold my mother-in-law's house. Before I went and changed the service over I offered the buyers a $500.00 credit on the price. They accepted it and never changed over the service (that was over 5 years ago). So how dangerous can it possibly be ?

Well, in reality they are dangerous as sfav8r pointed out - they don't trip instantly. You'll have to hold a short on a 20 amp circuit for several seconds before it will trip. They've been known in the industry as Federal "no blow" breakers.

The law suit in NJ focused in on a series of Stab-lock breakers that were manufactured (I believe in the 1960's) and never sent through UL for approval. In addition you had to be the original owner of the house in order to be in on the class action suit. And, I believe that the newer (or re-manufactured) Stab-lock breakers trip a lot sooner than their original counterparts. After all, why would a company remake a defective or inferior breaker ?

[ July 08, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

I had my long nose weld to the back of a panel and the 20 amper never tripped.
The idea behind the stab lock is that as the stab heats up from load it will spread in the hole and get tighter, it never worked that way thats why they fall out of the holes all the time.
I would have the people sign off on adding to the panel you will be the last one in so are liable.
New breakers for junk panels are made due to demand it was the cheapest back then '70s; the stab is a failed idea new or old.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Originally posted by royta:
Ok, I better butt in on this topic. I have a customer who has called me back for another job. They want me to install a 50A spa sub-panel. Here's the catch, it's an FPE panel. The local big orange store has breakers that fit FPE panels, and even has a couple 2-pole 50A breakers in stock. Is it safe to assume a new breaker will work properly?

I'm not really sure what to do here. Any advice?
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It depends. How much is the customer willing to spend? That 2 pole 50 FPE is going to cost a pretty penny, but not likely more than the cost of parts and labor to install a brand new panel.

And I'm sure the modern FPE replacements (made by Unique Breakers I believe) are more reliable than the old ones.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Originally posted by jemsvcs:
Thanks.

Alot of the websites refer to "Stab-Lok" FPE Panels as the ones with all the problems. Is that to say there were other panels that were ok?
Click to expand...
FPE made large frame breakers that were used in Zinsco switchboards and (I think) panelboards. Up to 100amp frame size.

What a pair!!!!

As far as I know, the large frame breakers were never a problem.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Recently had 2 events;1)builder / cust.was remodeling a house for himself. His helper cut through the dishwasher feed,no trip.Last week I got lazy installing receptacles,didn't have my tic tracer so I touched hot to nuetral and got a nice spark,then remembered it was FP panel so I clipped a test light to the wires,still hot.2 dead shorts,no trip,heard enough?
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

OK, I believe that certain FPE "stablock" breakers have rather poor tripping characteristics.

But I have a lot bigger problems with people intentionally cutting or grounding live wires to trip a breaker. Accidental is one thing, Intentional is another. :mad: When will this idiotic practice stop???
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Beware. These panels have problems. I would not stop short of saying anything less. I decided to do a rewire on my entire house, and boot the Federal Pacific panel. The panel Im replacing is FP split bus. meaning you have to turn a few of the top row breakers off to turn off the power, there is no main disconnect in my house. that?s the other reason I?m doing a complete redo an I just bought the house. well to make a long story short. I turned off the breakers and made sure the breakers were off. then went and disconnected the conductor I was removing from a very sloppy branch circuit connection. Well I removed it. then rechecked the panel to make sure the breaker was still off and double checked the conductor again with my fluke wire tester to make sure their was no power. I then when back to the cut the conductor back.to rewire the circuit for temp power to the bathroom. and WHAM ! ARC, on my new insulated lineman pliers. One of the breaker some how went back up in the on position. the funny thing is that it was still in the on position when I went to check it. this should have tripped the breaker but did not. Im not sure what the F* went on in that panel. These scare the hell out me. after that. I went outside and pulled the meter off. I advise everyone who has FP panel to take it out ASAP. I can't stress this enough. By the way the owner took off 27K for the screwed up house wiring and panel. He did not want to up grade the electrical system before selling the house. His bids were 35K to 50K. I told him to take 27K off the price and you have a deal. He took it. Im just a little peeved that my new $125.00 lineman insulated pliers is nothing but a pliers and not a cutter no more, but saved my life. Had leather gloves on too. Im used to working on live panels , but not like this one.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

Originally posted by stevenj:
Had leather gloves on too. Im used to working on live panels , but not like this one.
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:confused:
I've worked countless hours "live" and have never relied on leather to save me...my leathers protect my rubber gloves.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

celtic, true you are. I was wearing rubber under the my leathers. forgot to mention that. as a matter a fact their the rubbers the military gave me. when rebuilding that mess in the middle east. very good gloves. they come with a leather shell. nice military gloves can't find a pair like them anyplace else.
if you know where let me know I could use a 3rd set.
 
Re: Federal Pacific Panels

I don't know where you would find a pair to match what you have, but remember - the rubbers have a shelf life...don't forget to get them tested as required. Hopefully, you'll find relacements of equal feel/quality before those ones "expire".
:D

[EDIT: It's late and I am forgetting to write the words I hear in my head..LOL]

[ July 20, 2005, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: celtic ]
 
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