Finding the location in the attic

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williamsmithaud

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Hello Folks:

For lack of a better place to put this question, I put it here.

I would like to know how you as individuals tackle the task of finding the locations (in dark attics) where you are going to install a new light fixture or drop wire down to a new wall switch location where no wiring or switch currently exists.

As for me, I have used a white coat hanger pushed up through the sheet rock and insulation to find the new light fixture location. For new switches I have to measure very carefully down below and carry that information up into the attic with me hoping I measured correctly before I start drilling through the plates.

There's got to be a better/faster way to do this and minimize time in these hot attics. I'm working on an idea that might help, but would like to see how some of you "Old Pros" or "Young Pros" tackle this distasteful task. :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

how much easier could it be.

maybe a red blinking LED on the end of your coat hanger with and small piezo buzzer.

LMAO
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

I have not found it to be much of a problem. If I have a helper I have him knock on the ceiling or floor (or rather I knock and send him into the attic :D

-Hal
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Your too funny :D :D :D . Actually, I think having a helper who would go up there is the best idea, but I don't have one right now.

My thought was of a small flash light (like a Mini Maglite)with a flexible, but semi-ridged tube (shaft) on the end. The end of the tube (shaft) would have an LED that could be set to stay on or flash. The tube (shaft) would have to be about 1/8" in diameter and about 24 inches long or so. The tube shaft would have to be ridged enough to penetrate sheet rock and insulation, but flexible enough to fold up in the tool pouch. Your idea of a little buzzer would also be nice.

I searched the Internet and found that such a device actually does exist, and sells for about $30. However, the shaft is only about 7 or 8 inches long which is too short for what I'm thinking about.

I don't know about you, but I get a little lost in big attics. Searching around for my coat hanger in 130 degree Texas attic heat is not my idea of fun :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Tape a key chain size mag light on the end of your coat hanger, and for the switch, a stud finder to help pin point the top of the wall......
just a thought
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

I use a flexible snake drill bit. I have a 5.8"x 4', 3/4"x6', and I have 3-6' extensions that will allow me to drill from the basement all the way to the attic of a three story house. Greenlee makes them and some of the kits even come with a kelms grip to use to connect N/M to with a spinner that allows you to back the drill bit back through the holes. Works great.
The kit also comes with a handle to force the drill stright down so you dont come out of the wall when you drill from the opening you cut for a switch or receptacle.

It's called D?VersiBIT? System

A new twist to an old problem.
These flexible steel drill bits are the right tools for installing wire or cable inside
existing walls.
It bends to meet your needs!
Fishing wire or cable through existing walls used to be frustrating and time consuming,
but the D?VersiBIT? has made it as simple as bowing the spring steel shaft in the direction you want to drill and turning on the power. Proven in the field
to deliver accurate and professional results in
many applications. Bits range from 3/16" to 1"
(4.8 to 25.4 mm) in diameter and in shaft length
from 12" to 72" (304.8 to 1828.8 mm).

The D?VersiBIT? System makes it possible to
easily accomplish even complex installations.
This patented system attaches a quality
drill bit to a long flexible spring steel shaft.
When used with the Placement Tool, this
flexibility makes it possible to easily
manipulate the bit within walls. After
drilling, attach a D?VersiGRIP to the hole in the drill and pull wire or cable back
through the wall.
Click to expand...
I found the info on them here:
Greenlee holemaking.pdf

Scroll down almost to the bottom to page 55 on

[ July 25, 2004, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

I use things like recess cans and air vents to help find way.Then look for the top plate.I dont miss often.Grid wire works good for a finder and easy to fix hole if it doesnt work out.
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Experience and trial and error are the best tools.There is no easy way !!!
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

when i have trouble finding a particular bay in attic or basement i use an insulation support.I cut a sharp tip on the end and put them in my cordless. They are more rigid than a coat hanger and and they make small hole and they are reusable. I keep a box of these on the truck. I bought the box about 2 years ago for about $10 from the depot. give these a try they work great
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

One must keep in mind that drilling or poking anything into a wall ,ceiling or floor could come in contact with a live wire.
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Fishing wires in a existing building is an art by all means and requires a lot of experience to know all the little tricks without damaging wall surfaces, This was some of the first jobs I was put on when I started in the trade and I'm very thankful that my lead man was very good at this as he showed me many tricks of getting wires around a building without cutting into any surfaces. I now keep short pieces of fish tape on the truck that are very helpful and I have a tracer unit that if I need to find a point I can use it to trace where the fish tape is. learning to hook one fish tape with another is very valuable in this kind of work. And planning out your runs is just as important.

I did a house about two years ago for the U.S. Department of interior. It was registered as historical, and the building finish could not be damaged in any way. They wanted to have all the wiring replaced because of splices in the walls and other problems, and wanted all the new wiring to be #12 or larger. Most receptacles and switches had to be out of site or blend in. Talk about a nite mare.

Lets say the bid was well above what a new house would have been.

But they were very happy with the results and was scratching their heads at how I was able to get wire into some of the remote locations.

Remembering that most of these older buildings didn't have top plates on the top of the walls I used this as a way to pull around the corners of the ceiling and many other techniques like removing floor boards. It took almost three weeks to complete and was very dirty work but it paid very well.
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Hurk i take them as a challenge and it can be fun but very dirty.The cost is far higher than new construction.I let how much damage i do up to them.A patch man for half day might be far cheaper than an extra 40 hours of my time.Rewires are not something i care to do every day.
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Oh I forgot one thing with those long bits I use, I mark them with white tape every three inchs so when I get to a top plate I know how far I can drill before I'm about to go through this way I dont keep drilling and hit wires with the bit running in the cutting direction.

[ July 25, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

hurk: how do you deal with hidden diagonal braces. My experience with diver. bits showed problems where this was encountered in old plaster as the bits would run down the brace and seek some grip, which was always the edge of the wall, the slight bumping from the cutting edge was enough to pop the plaster from the lathe. This is where speed bore, SHARP speed bore bits could be stabbed into the diagonal without slipping down the diagonal. I also often drilled two holes, one to look down and one to fish or drill down. This has helped me an amazing amount of times when I ran into "problems".

paul
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

The Green Lee bits I use have a starter screw on the end of bit to help it and help it to feed through the wood. And yes i run across all kinds of braces that slow me down but these drills keep on going. The main thing is to use the handle tool for these bits to try to keep the bit in the center of the wall. Once you have drilled a few holes it will be clear that the first hole is the most important as this hole will guide the drill for the rest of them. Going from the basment to the attic requires that you get the drill in the center of the wall as you pass each floor, and keep it there! or you will be poping out somewhere you might not want to be. I have had a few embarassing moments :eek: with these bits but luckly the damage was easly fixable. I once was drilling up from a crawl space to only find out I came out in the upstairs bathroom floor right in front of the home owner. :eek: Needless to say that you have to make sure where you are at all times before ever thinking about drilling.
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

Dunno about those D?VersiBITs. The first and last time I used one with an auger on the end (3/4") the shaft twisted apart from the bit where it was brazed as soon as the cutter hit the wood. Brought the damn thing back to the supply house and got my money back.

I also can't see how you can see down through two plates to center it below that. The top plate and the bottom of a partition yes but farther than that and you are blind.

I'll take your word for it that you are good with them but I've found them pretty useless. AFAIC if these things are going to break through the wall somewhere I would rather do it neatly and in the proper place myself.

-Hal
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

i've never been able to look down the same hole i am shining a light in. with 2nd hole i've often seen that some odd thing is going on that is preventing me from doing what i want. helped center bits, get around old wires and pipes, braces, junk in wall, dead cat bones.

the best fish for middle reach, dead areas, including right angles is fishing line. 10 with a sharpbend, turned back down so it won't snag coming back thru hole (s) can reach 10' horizontally. a second from opposite fishside with a long leader of mono is fed into the same dead space, to far side of space, then back with a few twists to loop the line. a few tries and you can pull the mon o pulling a second stronger pull line; pulls around problem corners with ease.

a few times i had to use a slip stroke on 1/2" emt over the romex. to help it around corners, then pull off.

i've had some problems with augers on thin shafts with old and hard woods, where very sharp spade bits work well.

old work tricks are sometimes so personal that it doesn't work for others, almost like water witching.

paul
 
Re: Finding the location in the attic

I haven't found the D'Versibits strong enough for old construction. In L.A., houses from the 20's and 30's are framed with old-growth fir or redwood that's incredibly tough. The only drills that work are the 1/2" shaft ship augers (Greenlee or equivalent), and the only extensions available are 12". So I had a machinist friend weld 1/2" drill rod to these to make me a set of 3' and 6' extensions. With a 1/2" right-angle drill, I can get through bottom plate, diagonal brace, fireblock and top plate by adding extensions as I go. Just have to make sure the set-screws on the extensions are really tight ;) And be really sure there's no copper pipe in the wall :eek:
 
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