Fireman at the Big Box store.

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I believe that was exactly what happened Larry. I made my inquiry in a semi jesting manner and caught the poor dude off gaurd. It is after all the NFPA that puts out the code book!! Wisconsin law is about to change in the near future and there have been many seminars and classes on the upcoming changes and thier enforcment. Being a fire fighter I'm sure the guy has sat in on a bunch of these classes.(Most of our inspectors are with the fire department) I bite my tongue at the big box stores all the time. I've found that trying to explain things to folks there is just like trying to teach a pig to sing. Some times it s tough though. While it is true that you can't regulate stupidity, theres nothing wrong with occasionaly pointing out that the king has no clothes.:D
 
Our FD had a union steward BROTHER swindle $160,000 in dividends from the firemans health care plan investments, and went to prison.........Im just saying some people arent in it for the right reasons.....
 
chris kennedy said:
I can't believe I'm hearing this from you.
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I never said there weren't idiots out there, and quite frankly, we could use a little thinning of the herd, if you know what I mean. :roll: The attitude that I take umbrage with is the automatic assumption that if you don't have a card in your wallet, then you can't possibly know what you are doing; and by implication, if you do have a card in your wallet, then you are above the masses.

I have seen far too many cases where an electrician (or inspector) has taken the stance where electrical work is virtually a "secret society" and no one outside of that society could possibly understand the topic. What gets my goat is that these same people are frequently the same ones that think they know more than they actually do (No insult intended, and I am not implying that applies to anyone here).

As I sit here trying to justify what I have written, I think I have figured out the correlation between the two ideas. It isn't a one-to-one relationship, but the people (in my experience and my opinion) that assume that no one else can possibly know what they know, are the ones that are not open to the fact that they may not know something themselves. That is actually the core issue that I take umbrage with, and the original posting is just a symptom of that mindset.

I've been on the Internet for around 14 years now, and I have gotten angry emails from people with similar mindsets that argue about information solely because they have never seen it before, and therefore it cannot possibly be true. I once had a lineman argue with me saying my description of a 120/208 system was wrong,simply because in his area of work, it was all 120/240 open delta, and he had no knowledge of a wye system.

My statement was about the "mindset" of the OP, not whether the fireman could or could not complete the work safely.
 
There are decent HO's doing DIY and there are HO's that have no business doing their own work. Problem is there is no way to differentiate.

Then again I have completed inspections for some end users and the poor workmanship in the electrical installations worried me.

It is possible to have a completly safe electrical installation that is not code compliant, which I would see as a major hurdle for many HO's, complying with the NEC. Another issue would be over tightening of connections something many electricians are guilty of, the old tighter is better.
 
Rick,

its attitudes like your's that lull unqualified people into a false sense of security that they can do electrical work with no training and not worry about the dangers.

there are plenty of good electricians who don't have a card, but yes, having that card does put you a rung up.


i'm not bothered by electricians or inspectors who think anyone outside the industry can't do electrical work. the majority of work available isn't rocket science, but there's no point in telling everyone that. it only helps to further diminish the value of our industry.

i don't need a doctor to tell me when i have an infection, but i go to them anyway because they've been properly trained, and they'll be able to easily identify any further problems that could arise from it and determine the true underlying cause.

the advice they give out at the box stores are to electricians what over-the-counter meds are to doctors in a sense that they lower our volume. and there's nothing wrong with that in our capitalist society, but as someone who works in this field, why on earth would you want to do anything to advance that?
 
Rick Christopherson said:
I never said there weren't idiots out there, and quite frankly, we could use a little thinning of the herd, if you know what I mean. :roll: The attitude that I take umbrage with is the automatic assumption that if you don't have a card in your wallet, then you can't possibly know what you are doing; and by implication, if you do have a card in your wallet, then you are above the masses.

I have seen far too many cases where an electrician (or inspector) has taken the stance where electrical work is virtually a "secret society" and no one outside of that society could possibly understand the topic. What gets my goat is that these same people are frequently the same ones that think they know more than they actually do (No insult intended, and I am not implying that applies to anyone here).

As I sit here trying to justify what I have written, I think I have figured out the correlation between the two ideas. It isn't a one-to-one relationship, but the people (in my experience and my opinion) that assume that no one else can possibly know what they know, are the ones that are not open to the fact that they may not know something themselves. That is actually the core issue that I take umbrage with, and the original posting is just a symptom of that mindset.

I've been on the Internet for around 14 years now, and I have gotten angry emails from people with similar mindsets that argue about information solely because they have never seen it before, and therefore it cannot possibly be true. I once had a lineman argue with me saying my description of a 120/208 system was wrong,simply because in his area of work, it was all 120/240 open delta, and he had no knowledge of a wye system.

My statement was about the "mindset" of the OP, not whether the fireman could or could not complete the work safely.
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I have worked with many ees who werent qualified to tie thier shoelaces however that doesnt lump all ees into a category of shoelace tyers. One bad apple doesnt spoil the whole bunch. Homeowners are NOT REPEAT NOT qualified to put other peoples lives in jeapordy whether the best of intentions and my cousins brothers uncles dog wired a tract house once. Just as I am not qualified to modify a piece of high voltage switchgear to make it fit better to my cable. Stick to what you know no matter how simple that might be. It is the law!!
 
Rick Christopherson said:
I never said there weren't idiots out there, and quite frankly, we could use a little thinning of the herd, if you know what I mean. :roll: The attitude that I take umbrage with is the automatic assumption that if you don't have a card in your wallet, then you can't possibly know what you are doing; and by implication, if you do have a card in your wallet, then you are above the masses.

I have seen far too many cases where an electrician (or inspector) has taken the stance where electrical work is virtually a "secret society" and no one outside of that society could possibly understand the topic. What gets my goat is that these same people are frequently the same ones that think they know more than they actually do (No insult intended, and I am not implying that applies to anyone here).

As I sit here trying to justify what I have written, I think I have figured out the correlation between the two ideas. It isn't a one-to-one relationship, but the people (in my experience and my opinion) that assume that no one else can possibly know what they know, are the ones that are not open to the fact that they may not know something themselves. That is actually the core issue that I take umbrage with, and the original posting is just a symptom of that mindset.

I've been on the Internet for around 14 years now, and I have gotten angry emails from people with similar mindsets that argue about information solely because they have never seen it before, and therefore it cannot possibly be true. I once had a lineman argue with me saying my description of a 120/208 system was wrong,simply because in his area of work, it was all 120/240 open delta, and he had no knowledge of a wye system.

My statement was about the "mindset" of the OP, not whether the fireman could or could not complete the work safely.
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I think you might take your education for granted.
We have some really good electricians on this site and we constantly challenge each other with questions about proper bonding, grounding and over current protection.
I think if someone walked into a big box store, had to ask someone what they needed, I would have to assume that they were in trouble.
 
brantmacga said:
Rick,

its attitudes like your's that lull unqualified people into a false sense of security that they can do electrical work with no training and not worry about the dangers.

there are plenty of good electricians who don't have a card, but yes, having that card does put you a rung up.


i'm not bothered by electricians or inspectors who think anyone outside the industry can't do electrical work. the majority of work available isn't rocket science, but there's no point in telling everyone that. it only helps to further diminish the value of our industry.

i don't need a doctor to tell me when i have an infection, but i go to them anyway because they've been properly trained, and they'll be able to easily identify any further problems that could arise from it and determine the true underlying cause.

the advice they give out at the box stores are to electricians what over-the-counter meds are to doctors in a sense that they lower our volume. and there's nothing wrong with that in our capitalist society, but as someone who works in this field, why on earth would you want to do anything to advance that?
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Quality companies stand behind their services and products. They dont worry about how others may "save money". Our field stands on more than just the fear of others. The value of our field is not diminished by DIY. If someones "electrical company" is diminished then maybe they are not much different from a DIY. Electricians are not GOD like. Others can do what we do. Its the professional who understands that their knowledge and correct applications are of value. I never feel slighted and am confident that my services are well worth the money. If a DIY cant see that or does not wan to recgonize that then thats their loss. Be done with it and move on. The DIY bashing is getting old.
 
quogueelectric said:
I have worked with many ees who weren't qualified to tie their shoelaces however that doesn't lump all ees into a category of shoelace tyers. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. Homeowners are NOT REPEAT NOT qualified to put other peoples lives in jeopardy whether the best of intentions and my cousins brothers uncles dog wired a tract house once. Just as I am not qualified to modify a piece of high voltage switchgear to make it fit better to my cable. Stick to what you know no matter how simple that might be. It is the law!!
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Do you do any DIY work?

Mow you grass? Simple and dangerous at the same time.
Do plumbing work simple enough but can be dangerous, many facilities burn down due to plumbers torches.
Ever frame a deck or you own house. VERY DANGEROUS if done improperly.

While I understand the concern for others safety ANY ONE stating someone should not do our trade HAS NO BUSINESS DOING ANOTHER PROFESSION, from mowing your grass to roofing the house.

Fact is doing residential electrical work can be completed by SOME DIYer's others have no business touching the stuff.

It may be the law in your state but not in all states.
 
brian john said:
Do you do any DIY work?

Mow you grass? Simple and dangerous at the same time.
Do plumbing work simple enough but can be dangerous, many facilities burn down due to plumbers torches.
Ever frame a deck or you own house. VERY DANGEROUS if done improperly.

While I understand the concern for others safety ANY ONE stating someone should not do our trade HAS NO BUSINESS DOING ANOTHER PROFESSION, from mowing your grass to roofing the house.

Fact is doing residential electrical work can be completed by SOME DIYer's others have no business touching the stuff.

It may be the law in your state but not in all states.
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I dont think I would want my lawn service doing my service change either (I think thats what I got out of that)
 
chris kennedy said:
I can't believe I'm hearing this from you.

Just a safety thing some of us take quite seriously. I must be stupid like iaov.
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sure we all take safety seriously but what makes you think people want to hear it ? Especially a "Macho" fire man. I know I personally didnt become an electrician to preach to the masses. If they ask me a question then I might tell them my "opinion", but to walk up to someone and start preaching about safety? do you walk up to someone that is smoking and tell them that they are killing themselves ? and if you did Im sure you know what their response is going to be.
 
I'm a bit surprised at the longevity of this thread. I'm even more surprised to see electrical work being compared to lawn mowing!! :D
 
tonyou812 said:
do you walk up to someone that is smoking and tell them that they are killing themselves ?
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No, because I prefer to treat people like adults, and believe they know. However, once in a while, someone really has to be approached. In spite of your correct statements.

Like the guy I saw in the orange store with a 40a 2p breaker and a range receptacle in his shopping cart, looking at the NM cables, and eventually selecting a roll of #12 NM.

Sure, he may have been shopping for more than one project, and already had some #8. And, he may have even been an electrician, and I would have felt sheepish. Ba-a-a-a-h!

But, I politely asked, and he happily answered. "I'm helping a friend replace an old gas stove with an electric one. The bigger wire costs too much." I explained helping create a fire.

I took a chance for the right reason and it's unfortunate that I was right. But, I'm glad that I did it, and I'd do it again. In fact, I often have. I do have to live with myself.
 
Should auto parts stores sell brakes and front end parts to weekend mechanics?

If we think electrical installations should be off limits to a mechanically able person, then doing your own brake repair should be off limits as well, it would definitely put allot of people in jeopardy on the roads if done wrong.

I do think the electrical work done by HO's should be permitted and inspected though.

Roger
 
rfwells said:
This is funny, but not that accurate. :smile: If the bank owned the home, you would not have a mortgage.
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I always thought that until you pay the mortgage in full to the BANK they own it. So your saying that I own my home even though I haven't finished paying the lender? So how is it that the lender (bank) can come and take my house from me if I refuse to make any more mortgage payments?
 
iaov said:
I'm a bit surprised at the longevity of this thread. I'm even more surprised to see electrical work being compared to lawn mowing!! :D
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OK, how about this hypothetical then:

Your city has an ordinance that says you must get a permit every time you want to mow your lawn. You have a nice 6' privacy fence around you yard and your neighbors wouldn't tell on you...nobody's going to know you did it. Are you going to

A) Hire someone to do it (at a price that, no matter how reasonable it may be, YOU think is grossly high).]​

B) Go get a permit and mow it yourself, then have someone come inspect your yard afterwards to make sure you mowed it to the proper height, etc.​

C) Mow it yourself with no permit.​

I know this is quite ridiculous. I think it has more to do with lack of understanding of the consequences than anything else. Everyone knows you could cut your toe off with the lawn mower but they also know how to avoid doing that. I'm sure most DIY'ers think about it in terms of PAYING A CONTRACTOR A LOT OF MONEY vs. SAVING A LOT OF MONEY with no regard for the safety aspects. Who remembers high school shop class? I'm sure there's millions of people out there that think there's nothing more complicated than the things they did in HS shop. What's the worst that can happen, trip a breaker, right? We all know better than that but they don't.

Heck, I used to work on my own furnace until I saw a 1/2" natural gas line shooting fire out of it at work once. Now you better believe I don't want to be responsible for burning my house down. How many here have ever worked on their own furnace? Did you have a permit? A license?

I used to be of the mindset that I could do ANYTHING myself. Having three kids asleep in the next room changed my mind about a lot of that kind of stuff.
 
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