Fireman at the Big Box store.

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roger said:
Should auto parts stores sell brakes and front end parts to weekend mechanics?

If we think electrical installations should be off limits to a mechanically able person, then doing your own brake repair should be off limits as well, it would definitely put allot of people in jeopardy on the roads if done wrong.

I do think the electrical work done by HO's should be permitted and inspected though.
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Do you want to discuss how and which laws should be changed, or whether existing laws should be enforced differently?
 
LarryFine said:
Do you want to discuss how and which laws should be changed, or whether existing laws should be enforced differently?
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Neither, I know how they are enforced here, the HO is allowed to do electrical work and put brakes on their cars, and in the case of electrical work, it is supposed to be permitted and inspected, I have no problem with this, it is the American way.

As an aside, in the city I work out of, the HO must (or at least they used to) take a simple test showing basic mechanical and understanding skills before they can pull a permit, whether this really helps, I don't know.

Roger
 
A simple mechanical apptitude test !! I had to pass an extremely difficult Masters exam before I could pull a permit. I had to have thousands of hour of on the job experience and several years of class room study before I could even take that test!! I'm not sure demonstrating competence with a wrench and screw driver should be considered a qualification to pull permits and if it is, why are all these states making the proffesionals get certified?? :-?
 
iaov said:
A simple mechanical apptitude test !! I had to pass an extremely difficult Masters exam before I could pull a permit. I had to have thousands of hour of on the job experience and several years of class room study before I could even take that test!! I'm not sure demonstrating competence with a wrench and screw driver should be considered a qualification to pull permits and if it is, why are all these states making the proffesionals get certified?? :-?
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Because pro's are charging a fee.

BTW, you do realize there are a number of states that let anybody become electrical contractors even if their credentials are simply owning a screw driver or even less.

Roger
 
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There are many things we are allowed to do that maybe a pro should handle, but the LAW allows us to complete these installations.

A residential wiring job is a simple enough endeavor if you, read, can follow instructions and have a decent mechanical aptitude. I think the big issue is knowing all codes. Spacing of outlets, proper installation of AFCI's, GFCI's and these questions pop up every week on this site from pros.

Tell me the number one safety issue, typically a lose connection? I stated before a HO is more likely to over tighten a connection that to leave it loose.

Permitted, and inspected anyone with a fair amount of mechanical ability should be able to wire a house.
 
Rick Christopherson said:
I never said there weren't idiots out there, and quite frankly, we could use a little thinning of the herd, if you know what I mean. :roll: The attitude that I take umbrage with is the automatic assumption that if you don't have a card in your wallet, then you can't possibly know what you are doing; and by implication, if you do have a card in your wallet, then you are above the masses.

I have seen far too many cases where an electrician (or inspector) has taken the stance where electrical work is virtually a "secret society" and no one outside of that society could possibly understand the topic. What gets my goat is that these same people are frequently the same ones that think they know more than they actually do (No insult intended, and I am not implying that applies to anyone here).

As I sit here trying to justify what I have written, I think I have figured out the correlation between the two ideas. It isn't a one-to-one relationship, but the people (in my experience and my opinion) that assume that no one else can possibly know what they know, are the ones that are not open to the fact that they may not know something themselves. That is actually the core issue that I take umbrage with, and the original posting is just a symptom of that mindset.

I've been on the Internet for around 14 years now, and I have gotten angry emails from people with similar mindsets that argue about information solely because they have never seen it before, and therefore it cannot possibly be true. I once had a lineman argue with me saying my description of a 120/208 system was wrong,simply because in his area of work, it was all 120/240 open delta, and he had no knowledge of a wye system.

My statement was about the "mindset" of the OP, not whether the fireman could or could not complete the work safely.
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Well said, Rick!
(talk about stirring up a hornet's nest !! :grin:)
 
We should all go down to the firehouse and ask what kind of hose we need to put out a fire.

Tom

Big Box stores are good for what they are.
 
Just like the everready bunny... The mindset of the OP (me) was, at the store, and remains here now, amused. With a little confussion now also. I can't for the life of me figure out what mowing the lawn and electrical work have to do with each other and I am quite at a loss to see how 14 years of "internet experience" qualifies anyone to determine what may or may not constitute a safe practice as regards electrical installations.Enlighten me please that I may no longer need my secret society, black magic and decoder ring and once again walk in the presence of mortals and engineers!!:D
 
*Permitted, and inspected anyone with a fair amount of mechanical ability should be able to *wire a house.


yeah thats the ticket

there are places all over Arkansas that the Permit/Inspection process consists of the 'Inspector' driving up, rolling down the window just far enough to put a hand out to receive the 20 dollar bill that is the Inspection fee and driving away.

And,

'Anyone' does wire a house.
And a barn
And a shop
And a gas station
And a small grocery store
And a Resturant
And a Liquor Store
And a Church (A WHOLE LOT OF THESE ACTUALLY)


Ive got my license for a reason. I worked for it
It is my Career
My livelihood
MY WORKMANSHIP
and when I find people at the big box store that are buying enough stuff that its pretty obvious that they are 'wiring a house for a buddy' and openly admit that they arent licensed, (but know someone who is an 'electrician') I find out where they are working
and I turn them into the state
plain and simple

if youre going to work in this trade, put forth the time, energy and effort that me and a whole lot of my peers and forefathers did.

this isnt a lawncare service
 
i dont mean to offend anyone, but i work with enough jack legs in my industry that ARE actually licensed that i have NO sympathy for, - or confidence in - the skills of the casual idiot
 
mikeames said:
Quality companies stand behind their services and products. They dont worry about how others may "save money". Our field stands on more than just the fear of others. The value of our field is not diminished by DIY. If someones "electrical company" is diminished then maybe they are not much different from a DIY. Electricians are not GOD like. Others can do what we do. Its the professional who understands that their knowledge and correct applications are of value. I never feel slighted and am confident that my services are well worth the money. If a DIY cant see that or does not wan to recgonize that then thats their loss. Be done with it and move on. The DIY bashing is getting old.
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I don't know how you ever got "DIY bashing" out of my post.

Perhaps a re-read is in order?
 
izak said:
*Permitted, and inspected anyone with a fair amount of mechanical ability should be able to *wire a house.


yeah thats the ticket

there are places all over Arkansas that the Permit/Inspection process consists of the 'Inspector' driving up, rolling down the window just far enough to put a hand out to receive the 20 dollar bill that is the Inspection fee and driving away.

And,

'Anyone' does wire a house.
And a barn
And a shop
And a gas station
And a small grocery store
And a Resturant
And a Liquor Store
And a Church (A WHOLE LOT OF THESE ACTUALLY)


Ive got my license for a reason. I worked for it
It is my Career
My livelihood
MY WORKMANSHIP
and when I find people at the big box store that are buying enough stuff that its pretty obvious that they are 'wiring a house for a buddy' and openly admit that they arent licensed, (but know someone who is an 'electrician') I find out where they are working
and I turn them into the state
plain and simple

if youre going to work in this trade, put forth the time, energy and effort that me and a whole lot of my peers and forefathers did.

this isnt a lawncare service
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OK then you have NO BUSINESS DOING SOMEONE ELSE's TRADE. You think being a cabinet maker is simple, plumber, landscape.
 
iaov said:
Just like the everready bunny... The mindset of the OP (me) was, at the store, and remains here now, amused. With a little confussion now also. I can't for the life of me figure out what mowing the lawn and electrical work have to do with each other and I am quite at a loss to see how 14 years of "internet experience" qualifies anyone to determine what may or may not constitute a safe practice as regards electrical installations.Enlighten me please that I may no longer need my secret society, black magic and decoder ring and once again walk in the presence of mortals and engineers!!:D
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Because mowing the lawn can be dangerous, framing a house can be dangerous. WIRING A HOUSE is the simplest of things we do as electricians. ANYONE with a medium amount of mechanical skills should be able to wire a house.

I have built 2 houses and completly remodeled one FROM THE GROUND up, Self taught, built cabinets, installed duct, plumbing, drywall, finished drywall, custom trim. Not that tough. Oh and I mow my own lawn.

It appears to me the fighting for exclusivity guys are thinking there is more to wiring a house then there is (building their esteem) or are job protectionist.


Can/do people screw up sure and do electricians screw up ALL THE TIME. Lets stop all wiring because a few electricians do skunk quality work.
 
izak said:
Ive got my license for a reason. I worked for it
It is my Career
My livelihood
MY WORKMANSHIP
and when I find people at the big box store that are buying enough stuff that its pretty obvious that they are 'wiring a house for a buddy' and openly admit that they arent licensed, (but know someone who is an 'electrician') I find out where they are working and I turn them into the state
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Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. Was the comment by the OP really out of concern for the DIYer, or was it disdain for the DIYer concealed behind the guise of concern? That would be a completely different issue, and one that would garner more support from others, but that is not how the original story was lead out.
 
Rick Christopherson said:
Ahh, now we're getting somewhere. Was the comment by the OP really out of concern for the DIYer, or was it disdain for the DIYer concealed behind the guise of concern? That would be a completely different issue, and one that would garner more support from others, but that is not how the original story was lead out.
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Side work by electricians in many states is illegal.
Firemen doing wiring for others is illegal in many states
BUT some areas it is legal for HO's to do their own work.

As Roger said what about brakes jobs completed by the vehicles owner?

Should HD be forced to sell lumber, copper pipe and NM to only licensed contractors, Should Trak Auto be forced to sell parts to only licensed shops?

Do you ANTI HO's do any DIY WORK. If you do you have no supportable argument.

You are stealing money from licensed companies.
 
i dont build cabinets, I DEFINITELY DO NOT DO PLUMBING and I let my wife plant the bushes

but under no circumstances in any case would I CHARGE anyone to do ANYTHING but Electrical work
and auto mechanics, (which I was trained for as well) which i avoid like a plague

I have two good friends who are licensed plumbers, and when I need them, I call them. AND i PAY them even though they say i dont have to.
people are in thier trades because they need to make a living!
and when I need a CABINET MAN for my remodel, I WILL HIRE ONE
when i need a PLUMBER, I WILL HIRE ONE
however,
the only TRADES that are LICENSED in this state are:
Electrician
Plumber
HVAC technician


yeah, i dont have a problem with a homeowner replacing a ceiling mounted light fixture with one he just bought at Lowes.

But when he replaces that ceiling mounted light fixture with a CEILING FAN, and the outlet box is a PLASTIC NAIL-ON BOX and he just cruises on and hangs his fan, - happy as **** because he saved the $150 dollars i would charge him to purchase and install the proper mounting hardware and hang the fan - Ill be real happy when the fan falls while its running on high and whacks him on the head sending him to the hospital.

the box says! this product should be installed by a QUALIFIED Electrician in Accordance with appropriate Local, State and National Electrical Codes

DUH
 
oh yeah, and I am DEFINITELY a "Job Protectionist"

in my opinion, easily 50% of the 'legal' electrical workers in my area should be forced to leave the trade and provide room for fresh, new workers who actually want to BE electricians, not "just here for my 40 hours"

the way it USED to be
when you had to WAIT for a couple YEARS and prove that you wanted in

this isnt just a JOB
 
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