Fixing the NEC

[zbang]

but what happens when next month when the power company decides it's going to change out the transformer

All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery .)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.

 

[AC\DC]

I’ll have to get it in writing next time thank you

 

[AC\DC]

All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery .)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.

I agree but this sue happy world , and the people with money tend to sue the most

 

[jim dungar]

I agree but this sue happy world , and the people with money tend to sue the most

What are they going to sue for? You acted in good faith based on the information provided to you by the POCO.

Yes some unscrupulous attorney may sue you for anything, such as using a non-green crew for grounding, but I don't waste my time worrying about it.

 

[Master Nater]

All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery .)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.

then you won't mind when we dump all of these stupid GFCI requirements in appliances, because we're already required to ground and bond everything, so there's not electrocution hazard on things like vending machines, dishwashers, and sump pumps.

 

[AC\DC]

What are they going to sue for? You acted in good faith based on the information provided to you by the POCO.

Yes some unscrupulous attorney may sue you for anything, such as using a non-green crew for grounding, but I don't waste my time worrying about it.

Yes but only the paranoid survive..

 

[jim dungar]

Yes but only the paranoid survive..

I can't think of how many thousands of projects bear my PE stamp, I am definitely not thinking of what has changed in them over the decades.

 

[kwired]

For example, in your #1, saying they don't do anything and are worthless, is not a technical substantiation.

I will say nobody has the money to create a presentation to convince CMP's otherwise when it comes to AFCI's when they have to compete against the deep pockets of the manufacturers that have profit to gain by putting together information, presentations, etc. and make them convincing that they are well worth putting them into code even if they have some undesired effects here or there. Similar can be said on a few other topics that have somewhat high level of disagreement within the trade.

This sort of thing goes on in other trades/professions as well. Healthcare related issues is a pretty common one.

 

[zbang]

then you won't mind when we dump all of these stupid GFCI requirements in appliances, because we're already required to ground and bond everything, so there's not electrocution hazard on things like vending machines, dishwashers, and sump pumps.

a) what does that have to do with AFC (and why do you care)?
b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs, so I don't expect the requirements will be dumped soon and I'll think about it when it comes.

I'll take another one- ground rods for trailer-mounted generators. IMHO they do nothing more than make the inspector happy, so if he want one, fine, he gets one; I'm not going to get worked up about it.

 

[hbiss]

b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs...

I would like to see the substantiations. All I can see is a proliferation because "we can" and manufacturers make bigger profits.

-Hal

 

[AC\DC]

a) what does that have to do with AFC (and why do you care)?
b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs, so I don't expect the requirements will be dumped soon and I'll think about it when it comes.

I'll take another one- ground rods for trailer-mounted generators. IMHO they do nothing more than make the inspector happy, so if he want one, fine, he gets one; I'm not going to get worked up about it.

So if he says you have to install receptacle jumping on one foot why not! Just to make him happy, to much fluoride

 

[zbang]

(lost the reply I was writing, start again)

I would like to see the substantiations.

How Many Lives will be Saved?

iaeimagazine.org

"Since GFCIs have been required, there has been an 81 percent drop in home electrocutions and a 95 percent drop in electrocutions from consumer electrical powered products. The number of fatalities dropped from 1,000 annually to around 100 per year."

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution

www.cpsc.gov

or even-

https://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=reply&inResponseTo=21818&letterID=1683

And do the manufactures make more profits or just have more revenue? I'd like to see the substantiation of more profits (from these devices).

So if he says you have to install receptacle jumping on one foot why not!

If I can bill for it.... anyway, that's not a relevant comparison; more apt might be the inspector requiring an EGC inside EMT where it wouldn't be otherwise required, like in an office. Sometimes, if it's quick and easy, it may not be worth fighting over - that's been discussed many times around these forums.

 

[going_commando]

GFCI protection of 120v receptacles is great. Especially in wet areas and places where things are plugged in and unplugged frequently like garages, basements, outdoors, workshops, kitchen counters, residential bathrooms, etc. I have no problem at all with that. I do have a problem with requiring GFCI protection for fastened in place appliances to protect people from hazards due to poor manufacturing.

The appliances like dishwashers, HVAC condensers, laundry equipment, etc should not have a failure mode that makes the frame or housing a current carrying conductor, period. GFCI protection for those is limiting liability for appliance and equipment manufacturers and has nothing to do with the structure wiring. Manufacturers are making junk products that the UL approves, and then we have to cover their butts by adding expensive circuit breakers due to poor engineering and assembly practices. That's where I have a problem with it. Manufacturers could add their own GFCI protection in their appliances that would cost a fraction of what we pay for circuit breakers, and then it's their problem and not ours. A Square D QO GFCI 1 pole 20 amp breaker is now something like $70 for a $1 board and some CTs that the equipment manufacturer could install for the same protection.

I run into this all the time doing service work for gas stations. I get a service ticket a month for an outdoor ice chest tripping GFCI receptacles. The ice chest guys say everything is fine, I go check, and the GFCI trips when the compressor kicks on, and the customer has to pay me to tell them to call the ice chest company back. I suppose that's a poor example since outdoor 120v receptacles should be GFCI protected, but it's the same for all kinds of equipment.