Flood repairs

[Dt plug]

Wiring in flood waters

Wiring in flood waters

I think most sensible contractors are recommending replacing all wiring in the flood zone. I know I am and will walk if homeowners don't want to . As of right now houses with a red sticker on their door cannot be re-energized by the electric companies until a licensed electrical contractor preforms a visual inspection and makes any repairs necessary . In essence the utility companies and townships are re leaving themselves of all liabilities and putting all liabilities on the contractors to state the house is safe to re energize . So don't blame local contractors for saying you need a complete rewire if the wiring was in the flood zone they are protecting themselves for good reason . Problems can arise or manifest themselves at a later date no matter how well you look at flooded wiring or components and then if a fire happens or worse you may be held liable since you stated it was safe to re energize.

 

[PetrosA]

The whole situation seems strange to me. Normally, a contractor performs the work and an AHJ appointed inspector signs off on it, which gives the underwriter the green light to insure. Now, the situation is reversed with the contractor performing an inspection and the AHJ not getting involved - kind of like the sheriff setting a posse loose on a manhunt. Does that put the liability on the contractors if they missed something? Are contractors being given training or a checklist by the AHJ? Does a typical contractor liability policy even cover this kind of risk assessment by contractors?

 

[satcom]

I refuse to "just replace the breakers" on any flood panels we all know they will corrode down the road then whos fault is it?

If the wiring and equipment was under water, we recommend, demo all and replace, we will not risk the down the road problems that wet cables, and electrical equipment can produce in time.

 

[renosteinke]

Sure, let's all look for reasons to say 'no.' Let's put our clever minds to work and find all manner of 'what ifs' and 'maybes.'

Whatever happened to the "Can Do" attitude of the early 60's?

This isn't the first time there's been 'water damage,' even on this scale. What did we do in the past?

Good heavens, there are millions of folks affected .... if anyone thinks that everyone is going to sit idle as winter closes in, they're delusional.

The manufacturers have not the inventory, we have not the means to deliver even if they did, and there are not the skilled workers to "do it right."

So, this leaves us with a few possibilities as to what REALLY happens in these situations.

First off, there's not nearly the damage done that is imagined, and a lot of folks power up without problem.

Next, what problems there are are minor, quickly identified, and easily fixed.

Third, the 'replace everything' rant of the NEMA standard is clearly wrong, or misapplied.

Fourth, that systems are far more resilient than is speculated. For example, I find all this worry about wet Romex to be silly.

Perhaps the NEMA standard, and the NEC itself, are simply wrong?

Sure, it's easy to say 'replace and rewire,' but that's simply not going to happen. Nor has it ever happened in similar disasters. Yet, I must have missed the reports of all the terrible things that we're led to believe would have happened.

I'm thinking of a customer of mine, whose trailer park found itself at the bottom of a river for a month or so. I'm thinking of opening the meter pedestals years later, and finding inches of silt at the bottom, with very clear stripes of sediment, left as the waters receeded. It was clear that the PoCo replaced absolutely nothing, that it wasn't even hosed out.

Nor was a single trailer trailer rewired, or any pedestals at the units touched. Yet, I personally know the water was at least six feet deep there - plenty high enough to submerge any receptacles.

Therefore, I will say here that any 'blanket' assessment that everything that might have got wet needs complete replacement is an unprecedented extension, even abuse of, governmental power. AHJ's are exceeding their authority if they intrude. The PoCo's and property owners have done quite well without their help.

Likewise, all these parlor assertions about unethical or incompetent contractors are just so much smoke. New Orleans is a great reference .... where 'self inspection' worked, as well as being an example of AHJ malfeasance (and corruption) at its' worst.

My specific conclusions are:
1) Romex does just fine in water, and the NEC needs to recognize this;

2) If there's any thing to be said about breakers, it is that we need a way to test them in the field;

3) Wiring devices work just fine once the excess water drains away;

4) Sure, most things will be replaced - years down the road, when corrosion has had time to work. Replacing things now will only double the cost, as the moisture remaining in the walls will corrode the new stuff just as bad; and,

5) The 'big stuff,' whether in industry or the PoCo, is best handled by the pros who work with it every day. They don't need some "expert" looking over their shoulder.

 

[Gold]

Sure, let's all look for reasons to say 'no.' Let's put our clever minds to work and find all manner of 'what ifs' and 'maybes.'

Whatever happened to the "Can Do" attitude of the early 60's?

This isn't the first time there's been 'water damage,' even on this scale. What did we do in the past?

Good heavens, there are millions of folks affected .... if anyone thinks that everyone is going to sit idle as winter closes in, they're delusional.

The manufacturers have not the inventory, we have not the means to deliver even if they did, and there are not the skilled workers to "do it right."

So, this leaves us with a few possibilities as to what REALLY happens in these situations.

First off, there's not nearly the damage done that is imagined, and a lot of folks power up without problem.

Next, what problems there are are minor, quickly identified, and easily fixed.

Third, the 'replace everything' rant of the NEMA standard is clearly wrong, or misapplied.

Fourth, that systems are far more resilient than is speculated. For example, I find all this worry about wet Romex to be silly.

Perhaps the NEMA standard, and the NEC itself, are simply wrong?

Sure, it's easy to say 'replace and rewire,' but that's simply not going to happen. Nor has it ever happened in similar disasters. Yet, I must have missed the reports of all the terrible things that we're led to believe would have happened.

I'm thinking of a customer of mine, whose trailer park found itself at the bottom of a river for a month or so. I'm thinking of opening the meter pedestals years later, and finding inches of silt at the bottom, with very clear stripes of sediment, left as the waters receeded. It was clear that the PoCo replaced absolutely nothing, that it wasn't even hosed out.

Nor was a single trailer trailer rewired, or any pedestals at the units touched. Yet, I personally know the water was at least six feet deep there - plenty high enough to submerge any receptacles.

Therefore, I will say here that any 'blanket' assessment that everything that might have got wet needs complete replacement is an unprecedented extension, even abuse of, governmental power. AHJ's are exceeding their authority if they intrude. The PoCo's and property owners have done quite well without their help.

Likewise, all these parlor assertions about unethical or incompetent contractors are just so much smoke. New Orleans is a great reference .... where 'self inspection' worked, as well as being an example of AHJ malfeasance (and corruption) at its' worst.

My specific conclusions are:
1) Romex does just fine in water, and the NEC needs to recognize this;

2) If there's any thing to be said about breakers, it is that we need a way to test them in the field;

3) Wiring devices work just fine once the excess water drains away;

4) Sure, most things will be replaced - years down the road, when corrosion has had time to work. Replacing things now will only double the cost, as the moisture remaining in the walls will corrode the new stuff just as bad; and,

5) The 'big stuff,' whether in industry or the PoCo, is best handled by the pros who work with it every day. They don't need some "expert" looking over their shoulder.

I don't think your too far off. I do think where romex was exposed to water it should be allowed to dry and meggered to determine what should and shouldn't be replaced. Breakers should probably be replaced the panel examined and either cleaned or replaced. Remove the devices and allow everything to dry before testing the wiring and then replacing devices. Theres a lot of room between doing nothing and a complete rewire. Course of action should be set after drying and testing.

Like I said elsewhere the effect of salt water on copper isn't that severe. Corrosion from long term exposure has been measured at a few microns. Cleaning it and re-splicing it in many cases can be sufficient.

As far as panels, well what kind of panel?
CH with that silver plated copper buss bar, pfft knock the sand out replace the breakers and cast aluminum lugs and fire it up.
copper bus Siemens, if its newer a can of Electro-kleen and a heat gun, replace the breakers and cast aluminum lugs nolux and re-terminate the neutrals. Older Siemens panels that are scratched up and likely to see rust, replace them.
aluminum bus Murray within 8 miles of a drop of salt water for more then 11 seconds has probably already rotted into oblivion anyway, replace it.

Point is I think its safe to apply your professional opinion and make a repair or restoration rather then just replacing everything because it touched saltwater.

 

[robwire]

I think most sensible contractors are recommending replacing all wiring in the flood zone. I know I am and will walk if homeowners don't want to . As of right now houses with a red sticker on their door cannot be re-energized by the electric companies until a licensed electrical contractor preforms a visual inspection and makes any repairs necessary . In essence the utility companies and townships are re leaving themselves of all liabilities and putting all liabilities on the contractors to state the house is safe to re energize . So don't blame local contractors for saying you need a complete rewire if the wiring was in the flood zone they are protecting themselves for good reason . Problems can arise or manifest themselves at a later date no matter how well you look at flooded wiring or components and then if a fire happens or worse you may be held liable since you stated it was safe to re energize.

As per Rob Austin at the DCA's office. The wet wire can stay in place and the state is only requiring that the devices be changed.

They refuse to give anything in writing. Most inspectors in my area are saying replace everything,which is what we are doing. Since the state will not issue an official statement on this, we will not take the fall for their requirements

I have seen what salt water does to wire, Ask electricians that worked during Katrina, they will tell you the areas that were not rewired still have many problems to this day.

 

[goldstar]

We had a customer that wanted eight guys to go to NJ to help with generator hook ups but we did not have the licensing so we did not go.

And I thank you personally for that. You should have contacted me. I would have worked something out with you.

 

[goldstar]

As per Rob Austin at the DCA's office. The wet wire can stay in place and the state is only requiring that the devices be changed.

They refuse to give anything in writing. Most inspectors in my area are saying replace everything,which is what we are doing. Since the state will not issue an official statement on this, we will not take the fall for their requirements

I have seen what salt water does to wire, Ask electricians that worked during Katrina, they will tell you the areas that were not rewired still have many problems to this day.

The NEMA standard that Zog posted is probably your best guide for doing repair work in water damaged areas, irrespective of what Rob Austin or anyone else at the DCA has told you ON THE PHONE. You should also know that the State of NJ-DCA had issued a preliminary letter indicating that some water damaged equipment can be re-used. Some parts of this letter have been misinterpreted and the State will be issuing a follow-up clarification letter (hopefully) in the near future.

The initial letter indicated that devices such as breakers, panel boards, receptacles and switches can be dried out and re-used. However, the last part of the letter indicated that this was good for ?90 days?. The intent of this was so that contractors and other workmen could power up their tools to make repairs. The long and short of this is that all equipment that was submersed in water must be replaced. That includes meter enclosures, junction boxes, panel boards, breakers, switches, receptacles and RX cable. In addition, after you make these repairs to the building or residence these repairs must be ?certified? by a licensed electrical contractor. Be very cautions of what you are certifying !!! Make sure you check EVERYTHING yourself. Don't just look at the $$$ you're making because you can lose those $$$ real fast if the house burns down due to faulty work that you certified.

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

wac= washington (state) administrative (electrical) code:

"Flood Areas
WAC 296-46B-110(2) Electrical equipment and wiring that has been submerged or exposed to water must comply with the following:
(a) All breakers, fuses, controllers, receptacles, lighting switches/dimmers, electric heaters, and any sealed device/equipment (e.g., relays, contractors, etc.) must be replaced.
(b) All other electrical equipment (e.g., wiring, breaker panel boards, disconnect switches, switchgear, motor control centers, boiler controls, HVAC/R equipment, electric motors, transformers, appliances, water heaters, and similar appliances) must be replaced or reconditioned by the original manufacturer, or by its approved representative.
If exposed to flooding, an inspection must be made for: Any underground wiring, if any electrical connection was flooded, Any electrical equipment installed outdoors (e.g. mobile home pedestal, transformers, switches, receptacles, etc.), if any part of the equipment was flooded, Any structure with a basement area, Any structure where the maximum flood level reached the lower limit of the lower floor joists, or Any structure with a floor on grade."

just fyi. might help somebody in NJ or NY tho it certainly doesnot apply outside of wa

You may want to check this out ..... this is what we needed to do for Flood homes ...

AND the Local Electrical Inspector made us ..."any romex that got wet needed to be cut 10' from the effective area. " due to the paper wicking up the contaminated water in side the wire .

 

[G._S._Ohm]

(a) All . . .contractors. . .must be replaced.

This must be the new jobs some politicians are talking about, or maybe the new jobs are in proofreading.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

You can legally work under the authorization a NJ Contractor. The NJ contractor should technically be "on-site" while work is being performed however.

NJ electrical contractors are bonded, meet licensing requirements of testing and ceu's, insured and fall under the jurisdiction of a professional board which has great control over thier license and enforces strict responsibilities for them to live up to. This is not true of out of state contractors. Also an electrical contractor by state law cannot subcontract or allow an unlicensed contractor to "work under" his authorization without jepordizing his license.

Here is a letter from the NJ DCA giving some guidance in replacing damaged electrical equipment and wires. Having been a contractor at the shore for many years seeing many floods I can tell you that the salt water will seriously damage any armored cable, new or old, that is under water for any time and should be replaced despite the DCA recommendation of

Wiring underwater​

o If undamaged, no replacement is necessary


http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/hurricane_sandy_guidance_11_2012.pdf

 

[Gold]

NJ electrical contractors are bonded, meet licensing requirements of testing and ceu's, insured and fall under the jurisdiction of a professional board which has great control over thier license and enforces strict responsibilities for them to live up to. This is not true of out of state contractors. Also an electrical contractor by state law cannot subcontract or allow an unlicensed contractor to "work under" his authorization without jepordizing his license.

I see. So an out of state contractor can't get a NJ business license and hire a NJ licensed EC as a qualifying agent?

 

[goldstar]

Here is a letter from the NJ DCA giving some guidance in replacing damaged electrical equipment and wires. Having been a contractor at the shore for many years seeing many floods I can tell you that the salt water will seriously damage any armored cable, new or old, that is under water for any time and should be replaced despite the DCA recommendation of

Wiring underwater​

o If undamaged, no replacement is necessary


http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/hurricane_sandy_guidance_11_2012.pdf

Rick, this is the letter I was referring to in one of my posts. If you read the last 2 bulleted points :

o Reinstall breakers necessary for temporary occupancy and restoration
o Within 90 days, all breakers and bus bar must be replaced. In lieu of replacement,
the bus bar may be certified by a licensed electrical contractor

The intent of this was so that workmen could power up their tools and make repairs. It was never intended to be a permanent solution. The DCA should be issuing a follow-up clarifying this.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I see. So an out of state contractor can't get a NJ business license and hire a NJ licensed EC as a qualifying agent?

Yes you can hire a NJ licensed electrician but a NJ licensed electrician cannot subcontract to or take out a permit for an unlicensed outfit. The electricians that work under a NJ licensed electrician must be thier employees or to subcontract the company must be a NJ licensed electrical firm.

 

[Gold]

Yes you can hire a NJ licensed electrician but a NJ licensed electrician cannot subcontract to or take out a permit for an unlicensed outfit. The electricians that work under a NJ licensed electrician must be thier employees or to subcontract the company must be a NJ licensed electrical firm.

Thanks Rick but I am a NJ licensed Electrician I don't have much need to hire one. I think were splittin' hairs here but for sake of clarity I think we are both saying any company can engage in the business of electrical contracting by employing a license holder. Which is what I was eluding to earlier. BTW it would be nice if this were enforced.

 

[robwire]

Rick, this is the letter I was referring to in one of my posts. If you read the last 2 bulleted points :

o Reinstall breakers necessary for temporary occupancy and restoration
o Within 90 days, all breakers and bus bar must be replaced. In lieu of replacement,
the bus bar may be certified by a licensed electrical contractor

The intent of this was so that workmen could power up their tools and make repairs. It was never intended to be a permanent solution. The DCA should be issuing a follow-up clarifying this.

Rick is talking about the WIRE!!!!

The state says wire can stay, people have already began sheet rocking.

According to Rob austin there will be no follow up.

 

[robwire]

The NEMA standard that Zog posted is probably your best guide for doing repair work in water damaged areas, irrespective of what Rob Austin or anyone else at the DCA has told you ON THE PHONE. You should also know that the State of NJ-DCA had issued a preliminary letter indicating that some water damaged equipment can be re-used. Some parts of this letter have been misinterpreted and the State will be issuing a follow-up clarification letter (hopefully) in the near future.

The initial letter indicated that devices such as breakers, panel boards, receptacles and switches can be dried out and re-used. However, the last part of the letter indicated that this was good for “90 days”. The intent of this was so that contractors and other workmen could power up their tools to make repairs. The long and short of this is that all equipment that was submersed in water must be replaced. That includes meter enclosures, junction boxes, panel boards, breakers, switches, receptacles and RX cable. In addition, after you make these repairs to the building or residence these repairs must be “certified” by a licensed electrical contractor. Be very cautions of what you are certifying !!! Make sure you check EVERYTHING yourself. Don't just look at the $$$ you're making because you can lose those $$$ real fast if the house burns down due to faulty work that you certified.

I have been replacing all the wire but some guys are not.

BTW the certify is just to get power on,the repairs get inspected.

This will come back to bite the state on its behind, but see no one signed this letter. Kinda fishy

 

[goldstar]

Rick is talking about the WIRE!!!!

The state says wire can stay, people have already began sheet rocking.

According to Rob Austin there will be no follow up.

Rob, last week at our contractors association meeting we had a CEU class with an inspector from South Jersey. Before the class I made several announcements including a statement regarding not having to replace wire based on our discussions in this thread. He emphatically told me that I was wrong and that the State would be issuing a new letter clarifying the previous one. IMHO, if any EC wants to sign off on a repair job that did not include the replacement of wiring that was submersed in salt water is hanging their license out on the line.

This same inspector mentioned that he went to inspect a residential unit that had a multi-meter stack. He asked the electrician who signed off on the job if he had inspected everything. When he was told that it was he proceded to open up one of the meter enclosures only to find 18" of sand inside the enclosure.

I'll restate what I said in an earlier post, the link to the NEMA standard that Zog posted for evaluating water damaged equipment is your best guide for doing any work in these areas, irrespective of what Rob Austin of the State DCA Code Assistance Unit tells you on the phone.

Just my opinion.

 

[harold endean]

I don't know about any other inspector out there in NJ. According to IAEI, NEMA, and UL, any wire that goes under water has to be either replaced, or re-listed by a certifying agency ( like UL) OR the electrical contractor can take responsibility. It is your license on the line, but you can check it out and say it is OK. As for the DCA letter, it is not signed by anyone at the DCA, so I don't know who wrote it. The DCA holds my inspectors license, but the towns give me the legal right to enforce the UCC as adopted by our state. The DCA can not overide my authority unless the adopt the new rules and put it in the UCC or the "Blue Book". SO you might want to check with the AHJ in the town that you are working in, because you don't want to close up the walls after leaving the old wire in there and finding out that you are liable for that wire. This is my opinion only.

 

[bullheimer]

contactors then.... :happyno:

i would myself, replace every device and piece of wire that went under water at one or both ends, just for my own peace of mind. i would conceivably clean up a panel busbar as suggested, that sounds find, but definitely not any breakers. i cant imagine the giant waste of time it would be to unscrew wires from outlets and then wait around to dry them out, for the price of them. only if i couldn't buy new.

harold, ygm