For the California guys....

[e57]

Solution:roll:......Hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. Just make sure that when you do the "terminations" that you have a Certified Electrician.

No that is plain mis-leading - and not true.

 

[ibew441dc]

No that is plain mis-leading - and not true.

What about it is mis-leading and not true?

You seem to be one that has kept up with the topic.....so you should already be aware of the events that have taken place in this regard?

http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ecu/LaborCode3099-3099_5.html(see California Labor Code 3099.C)

If safety was on the states mind, this certification would apply to all electricians, not just those working for C-10s and limited to the "100VA garbage".

 

[ibew441dc]

What are the facts????HMMMMM???

What are the facts????HMMMMM???

The California Apprenticeship Council has a pretty good definition of a General Electrician......

Chapter 2. California Apprenticeship Council
Subchapter 4. Electrician Certification
290.1 Definitions
General Electrician is one who performs work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining any electrical system that is covered by the National Electric Code.

The State has chosen to screw it up.......

California Labor Code 3099(c) As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes. This section does not apply to persons performing work to which Section 7042.5 of the Business and Professions Code is applicable, or to electrical work ordinarily and customarily performed by stationary engineers. This section does not apply to electrical work in connection with the installation, operation, or maintenance of temporary or portable electrical equipment performed by technicians in the theatrical, motion picture production, television, hotel, exhibition, or trade show industries.

 

[ibew441dc]

Solution:roll:......Hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. Just make sure that when you do the "terminations" that you have a Certified Electrician.

No that is plain mis-leading - and not true.

BTW I meant to have the rolling eyes (sarcastic) smiley....I am an no way promoting this practice,merely pointing out some flaws that have been taken advantage of.

 

[e57]

What about it is mis-leading and not true?

You seem to be one that has kept up with the topic.....so you should already be aware of the events that have taken place in this regard?

http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ecu/LaborCode3099-3099_5.html(see California Labor Code 3099.C)

If safety was on the states mind, this certification would apply to all electricians, not just those working for C-10s and limited to the "100VA garbage".

Now Daniel - if I can address as such, I would have added this to my previous post - but lunch was ready and my daughter had a fit.... Nap time...

You have just become victim of what you originally accussed me of - not reading the whole thing.

The Labor Code authorizes the DIR, DAS and CAC to write Title-8.

Please see the wording of the defined catagories - not just "connect" - but "construct". This effects any employee who picks up a tool while working for a C-10...
http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html

This was also clarified in previous FAQ's from the DAS not to include office personal with the former and familier wording of 'use of tools of the trade' which has has since been changed to the wording in the above link.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/230_1.html
Violate this one if on a PW job and you're toast!

 

[e57]

Sorry Daniel, you did find it while I was juggling some household tasks.... But the State in this case as the 'Labor Code' is the authorization to write the CAC's "Regulation" on the topic.

Mark

 

[ibew441dc]

Now Daniel - if I can address as such, I would have added this to my previous post - but lunch was ready and my daughter had a fit.... Nap time...
You have just become victim of what you originally accussed me of - not reading the whole thing.
The Labor Code authorizes the DIR, DAS and CAC to write Title-8.
Please see the wording of the defined catagories - not just "connect" - but "construct". This effects any employee who picks up a tool while working for a C-10...
http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/290_1.html
This was also clarified in previous FAQ's from the DAS not to include office personal with the former and familier wording of 'use of tools of the trade' which has has since been changed to the wording in the above link.
http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/230_1.html
Violate this one if on a PW job and you're toast!

Sorry Daniel, you did find it while I was juggling some household tasks.... But the State in this case as the 'Labor Code' is the authorization to write the CAC's "Regulation" on the topic.
Mark

Although related and appropriate for this thread, you are taking our discussion of track.

Solution......Hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. Just make sure that when you do the "terminations" that you have a Certified Electrician.

No that is plain mis-leading - and not true.

Prevailing Wage is a related but obviously a more complicated mess. On a private job a C-10 could legally hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. I know a lot of guys on both side of the fence and it happens over there a lot.

Heck even on a prevailing wage job and the classification is for Inside Wireman, one does not have to be certified unless a C-10 hold the contract.

 

[e57]

Although related and appropriate for this thread, you are taking our discussion of track.



Prevailing Wage is a related but obviously a more complicated mess. On a private job a C-10 could legally hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. I know a lot of guys on both side of the fence and it happens over there a lot.

Heck even on a prevailing wage job and the classification is for Inside Wireman, one does not have to be certified unless a C-10 hold the contract.

It's not off track at all. The law that created the current PW regulations requires "Certified Electrical Workers" and mandatory Apprentice labor - it does not exist without certification, and certification does not exist without apprenticeship in some form. I challenge you to call your local DSLE agent and see if "Laborers" will be allowed in contract compliance for PW work - I dare you in fact.....

As for private work - it remains the same. Remember the word "Construct".... You could get laborers to deliver the materials.... But not to put any together. I'll direct you to yet another recent change on the DAS FAQ's.

Ref:

SEC. 2. Section 3099.2 of the Labor Code is amended to read:
3099.2. (a) (1) Persons who perform work as electricians shall
become certified pursuant to Section 3099 by January 1, 2005. After
January 1, 2005, uncertified persons may not perform electrical work
for which certification is required.

Remember this is the from the LAW authorising the DAS and CAC to write the REGULATION with the word "CONSTRUCT" in it.

 

[e57]

Yes theres more.....

(g) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), the qualifying person for a class C-10 electrical contractor license issued by the Contractors' State License Board need not also be certified pursuant to Section 3099 to perform electrical work for that licensed contractor or to supervise an uncertified person employed by that licensed contractor pursuant to Section 3099.4.(h) Commencing July 1, 2009, the following shall constitute additional grounds for disciplinary proceedings, including suspension or revocation of the license of a class C-10 electrical contractor pursuant to Article 7 (commencing with Section 7090) of Chapter 9 of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code:(1) The contractor willfully employs one or more uncertified persons to perform work as electricians in violation of this section.(2) The contractor willfully fails to provide the adequate supervision of uncertified workers required by paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 3099.4.(3) The contractor willfully fails to provide adequate supervision of apprentices performing work pursuant to subdivision (d).

Ref:

And I'm yet to decipher how that relates to this.

 

[ibew441dc]

The California Apprenticeship Council has a pretty good definition of a General Electrician......

Chapter 2. California Apprenticeship Council
Subchapter 4. Electrician Certification
290.1 Definitions
General Electrician is one who performs work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining any electrical system that is covered by the National Electric Code.

The State has chosen to screw it up.......

California Labor Code 3099(c) As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes. This section does not apply to persons performing work to which Section 7042.5 of the Business and Professions Code is applicable, or to electrical work ordinarily and customarily performed by stationary engineers. This section does not apply to electrical work in connection with the installation, operation, or maintenance of temporary or portable electrical equipment performed by technicians in the theatrical, motion picture production, television, hotel, exhibition, or trade show industries.

It's not off track at all. The law that created the current PW regulations requires "Certified Electrical Workers" and mandatory Apprentice labor - it does not exist without certification, and certification does not exist without apprenticeship in some form. I challenge you to call your local DSLE agent and see if "Laborers" will be allowed in contract compliance for PW work - I dare you in fact.....

Not necessary, as I do not disagree with you or the DSLE in this matter.

It's not off track at all. The law that created the current PW regulations requires "Certified Electrical Workers" and mandatory Apprentice labor - it does not exist without certification, and certification does not exist without apprenticeship in some form. I challenge you to call your local DSLE agent and see if "Laborers" will be allowed in contract compliance for PW work - I dare you in fact.....

As for private work - it remains the same. Remember the word "Construct".... You could get laborers to deliver the materials.... But not to put any together. I'll direct you to yet another recent change on the DAS FAQ's.

Ref:
Quote:
SEC. 2. Section 3099.2 of the Labor Code is amended to read:
3099.2. (a) (1) Persons who perform work as electricians shall
become certified pursuant to Section 3099 by January 1, 2005. After
January 1, 2005, uncertified persons may not perform electrical work
for which certification is required.

Go to the top of this post and reread 3099(C) which remains to this day unchanged. The CAC definition is not respected in its entirety in regards to the Law requiring one to be certified.

 

[bkludecke]

FYI. I tested for my Ca cert in 2003, I was #206. After many years of delays I was finally required to renew a few months ago. Rather than trying to figure out the confusing rules, I just sent in copies of a bunch of CEU certificates from IAEI seminars and one from a MH seminar and, VIOLA! I got my cert renewed good as new. I think that as long as the check clears about any type of CE will qualify.

 

[e57]

Go to the top of this post and reread 3099(C) which remains to this day unchanged. The CAC definition is not respected in its entirety in regards to the Law requiring one to be certified.

Sorry you lost me?????

Not looking to go into the chicken and egg... But 3099 as a whole did not exist, nor did CAC's definition prior to 1999.

3099 of the labor code created the authority for the CAC to create it's definition - which I add they have changed several times. 3099 is the authorisation to create the certification program.

California Labor Code 3099 ? 3099.5
3099. (a) The Division of Apprenticeship Standards shall do all of the following:
(1) On or before July 1, 2001, establish and validate minimum standards for the competency and training of electricians through a system of testing and certification.
(2) On or before March 1, 2000, establish an advisory committee and panels as necessary to carry out the functions under this section. There shall be contractor representation from both joint apprenticeship programs and unilateral nonunion programs in the electrical contracting industry.
(3) On or before July 1, 2003, establish an electrical certification curriculum committee comprised of representatives of the State Department of Education, the California Community Colleges, and the division. The committee shall establish written educational curriculum standards for enrollees in training programs established pursuant to Section 3099.4.
(4) On or before July 1, 2001, establish fees necessary to implement this section.
(5) On or before July 1, 2001, establish and adopt regulations to enforce this section.
(6) Issue certification cards to electricians who have been certified pursuant to this section. Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (4) are continuously appropriated in an amount sufficient to pay the costs of issuing certification cards, and that amount may be expended for that purpose by the division.
(b) There shall be no discrimination for or against any person based on membership or nonmembership in a union.
(c) As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and Regulations. This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes. This section does not apply to persons performing work to which Section 7042.5 of the Business and Professions Code is applicable, or to electrical work ordinarily and customarily performed by stationary engineers. ~~~~~~
3099.4
~~~~~~~
(e) The division shall establish registration fees necessary to implement this section, not to exceed twenty-five dollars ($25) for the initial registration. There shall be no fee for annual renewal of registration. Fees collected are continuously appropriated in an amount sufficient to administer this section and that amount may be expended by the division for this purpose.
(f) The division shall issue regulations to implement this section.

FYI little bits of the original bill AB-931 remain, and were ammended in following years to create what you see here today. The authority to create regulations - not the regulations themselves. Those are title-8 items.

 

[ibew441dc]

FYI. I tested for my Ca cert in 2003, I was #206. After many years of delays I was finally required to renew a few months ago. Rather than trying to figure out the confusing rules, I just sent in copies of a bunch of CEU certificates from IAEI seminars and one from a MH seminar and, VIOLA! I got my cert renewed good as new. I think that as long as the check clears about any type of CE will qualify.

You have clearly illustrated my point early in this thread:smile:.......one does not need to worry about where they get there CEU's from.....Just get them and get a certificate of completion.

 

[e57]

.......one does not need to worry about where they get there CEU's from.....Just get them and get a certificate of completion.

And do it quick before the rules change again..... :grin:

 

[iwire]

This is mind boggling to an outsider. It sounds like a total and utter Govt. failure.

Here it is easy if you want to be an electrician you become an apprentice, do the field time, do the class room time, take the test and eventually become a J-man and if a builder wants to be an electrician they do not get a free pass. They would have to do the same.

 

[ibew441dc]

Sorry you lost me?????

Me too:-?....Maybe we are not on the same planet....oh wait we're actually in the same state:wink:???

Not looking to go into the chicken and egg... But 3099 as a whole did not exist, nor did CAC's definition prior to 1999.

For this thread, Who cares about what it said in 1999 or even last year for that matter....We are talking about what it says now.....maybe that's where the confusion comes in.....you are obviously emotionally charged from the very first thread.

3099 of the labor code created the authority for the CAC to create it's definition - which I add they have changed several times. 3099 is the authorisation to create the certification program.

Yeah, and what part of 3099(C)"This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes" do you not get? The section has never changed.....and applies to prevailing wage or not.

 

[ibew441dc]

This is mind boggling to an outsider.

:smile: It's even worse for those of us that have to deal with it:grin:

 

[e57]

For this thread, Who cares about what it said in 1999 or even last year for that matter....We are talking about what it says now.....maybe that's where the confusion comes in.....you are obviously emotionally charged from the very first thread.

Oh you should have seen me back in 2001..... I was 31, a new C-10 looking to conquer the world, and threatened with extinction by this very law. Rage can not describe it. Fortunately things have changed both with this law over time, and the efforts a good number of people, as well as my own efforts to become more diplomatic.

Yeah, and what part of 3099(C)"This section does not apply to electrical connections under 100 volt-amperes" do you not get? The section has never changed.....and applies to prevailing wage or not.

Yes that section of the Labor Code has not changed, but in context of what part of, and what that part of the Labor Code actually does are not are no longer relevant to the Electrician Certification Program, Prevailing Wage (in other parts of the Labor Code) or in current practice, or interpretation of what the legal definition of what an Electrician, or Employee of a C-10 contractor is.

What I am trying to point out, and make clear to you, and anyone else looking in, that as you suggested, a C-10 could hire laborers to pull wire, or run pipe, and have the 'certified' guy connect them.

Prevailing Wage is a related but obviously a more complicated mess. On a private job a C-10 could legally hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. I know a lot of guys on both side of the fence and it happens over there a lot.

Heck even on a prevailing wage job and the classification is for Inside Wireman, one does not have to be certified unless a C-10 hold the contract.

The above statements are false, and misleading. And by no way be justified by the wording you point to in 3099 of the Labor Code.

3099 of the Labor Code is merely the authorisation for the DIR, and under them, the DAS, and CAC to define the Electrician Certification Program and write the ACTUAL definition of what an Electrician, or Employee of a C-10 contractor is, as well as all the other parts of the REGULATIONS that makes up this mess. They are what is enforceable. Not the Labor Code authorising them. Think about it in much the same way Article 90 of the NEC is written.... Or the way any AHJ would adopt a code... In this case the state, California - through 3099 of the Labor Code adopts the DAS as 'AHJ so to speak', and tells them what to do...

3099. (a) The Division of Apprenticeship Standards shall do all of the following:

And in that section, it defines what it applies to.

As used in this section, "electricians" includes~~~~

What it tells the DAS to do is write regulations. (And report to the CA Leg - athough they skirted that...) And those regulations are in Title-8, and the enforceable elements of what the labor code created.
And what it originally said was exactly the same as what the labor code said. Then they shortly realized the mistake, and changed the wording several times, often because they realized other mistakes, and we are now dealing with a definition laid out with a common wording as such.

~~Electrician is one who performs work for a C-10 electrical contractor installing, constructing or maintaining any electrical system~~~~

And those definitions, as well as the copies of actual regulations can be found here. This is what changes the most......
http://www.dir.ca.gov/t8/ch2sb4.html

And please take note - that at the bottom of each it says,

Note: Authority cited: Sections 3099 and 3099.4, Labor Code. Reference: Sections 3099-3099.4, Labor Code.

Or words to that effect..... Depending on which you are looking at. Also one should note the disclaimer that the ones on that site are not to be considered accurate.....

And that the REAL regulations, can be found here. (FYI this last link is a fascinating set of documents for those interested in boring legal text.) And it is these Title-8 regulations that are subject to change at the whim of the CAC.

Bottom line is that "Laborers" can not be employed by a C-10 constructing anything electrical related.

 

[e57]

This is mind boggling to an outsider. It sounds like a total and utter Govt. failure.

Here it is easy if you want to be an electrician you become an apprentice, do the field time, do the class room time, take the test and eventually become a J-man and if a builder wants to be an electrician they do not get a free pass. They would have to do the same.

You know Bob - I grew up in E.Somerville and Cambridge. And went to Trade School as part of HS... Where one could start in the trades... Some friends went into the Electrical Program (Machine shop for me) and I hear that some are still in the trade. I picked up the Electrical thing in the Military, and when I got out stayed here in CA for many reasons, one besides the weather and better looking women, was that I could easily stay in the Electrical Trade with little hassle here. And Boy - oh - boy did that change!!!!!! :grin: :grin:

 

[e57]

As for the recent 'enforcement' changes on the DAS FAQ's

Yes theres more.....
Ref:

And I'm yet to decipher how that relates to this.

I think I found it?????

? 7110.5. Initiation of action against contractor after receipt of Labor Commissioner’s finding of willful violation of Labor Code
Upon receipt of a certified copy of the Labor Commissioner’s finding of a willful or deliberate violation of the Labor Code by a licensee, pursuant to Section 98.9 of the Labor Code, the registrar shall initiate disciplinary action against the licensee within 30 days of notification.Added Stats 1978 ch 1247 ? 1. Amended Stats 2005 ch 280 ? 9 (SB 1112), effective January 1, 2006.