Ford Powerstroke 6.0 diesel work vehicle owners..... take note....

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
i have learned more about the 6.0 powerstroke diesel that is in my
econoline in the last few days, than i ever wanted to know.....

here is the scoop for those of you driving with this engine doing the
pushing....

there are THREE major problems with this engine.

oil cooler
EGR cooler

head studs

they are all interrelated, as when the first one goes, it triggers
a cascade to create other problems.

the root of almost all the problems is the oil cooler, under the manifold.
it's an oil to water intercooler, and plugs up with coolant sediment.
no way around it. sand from block casting is a huge culprit. you can
use coolant filters, but sooner or later, that thing is gonna get blocked.
this reduces heat transfer of the oil to the water, and reduces the water
flow to the EGR cooler, right next to it. that causes it to overheat, plug
with sediment as well, and pass on even less hotter water to cool other
things, like turbos, etc.

so, if you have over 40k miles on that motor, both those things need to be
replaced. if you are under warranty, ford will replace them with the same
parts, buying you enough time to get out of warranty. the repair of these
two things is $4,400 at the dealer. for a fix that doesn't solve anything.

mine lasted 90k miles, cause i'm fussy with service on the vehicle, but
moreover, cause i'm lucky. but not lucky enough, cause i'm out of
warranty when it went poop last wednesday.

there are a lot of people with fixes for this problem. the one i'm going
with, is from bullet proof diesel, of mesa, arizona. everything else is a
bandaid. this one solves the problem for good.

a remote oil/air cooler on the front of the radiator, with bypass oil filtering.
and a 316 stainless steel EGR cooler that can't plug up or blow out or rust.

now, the head gasket problem is not a head gasket problem, it's a cylinder
head bolt problem. the only solution that works is installing an ARP cylinder
head stud kit, which costs $500 for the stud kit. they also make an even
stronger head kit for competition motors, which is $1,300 for the kit, and
not needed.

there are aftermarket head gaskets claiming to solve the problem.
they blow out in a year, no matter what head bolts or studs you use.
use only OEM ford head gaskets.

if you fix those three things, the life of the engine should be well above
half a million miles.

so, what's it cost? for a van, right around $9,000.00 i'm waiting on the
exact estimate. probably about $7,300 for a truck, as you don't have to
remove the engine to pull the heads, but you do have to lift the body
off the frame. it's faster that way than doing the bobbing for apples
thing over the body and fenders.

so, you pay your money, and you make your choice.... but if i was
gonna pull the manifold to fix these things on a truck, i'd do the
cylinder heads at the same time. friend of mine didn't do that, spent
the $4,400 at the dealer for the same sucky parts, and six months
later, lost the head gaskets. all the labor was wasted, as it all had
to come apart *again*.

he traded it in on a dodge.

useful links:

http://www.bulletproofdiesel.com/

http://arp-bolts.com/
Guess what? My 05 6.0 with 107000 miles is in the shop now. The pickup was starting to chug a little the other morning like the fuel filters might be plugging up so I had it sent in to the dealership. It's been needing to be serviced for some other minor things I've been putting off too, so I guess now's the time.

My list of problems I gave to the dealer:

1. Cruise control doesn't work
2. Front brakes squeek
3. Fuel filters need changed?
4. Check engine light comes on
5. "Wrench" light comes on
6. Fuel gauge quits intermittently
7. Hubs don't lock in automatically using shift-on-the-fly, only work manually.

Dealer finds more, Fulthrottl nailed the first two:

8. EGR Cooler
9. Engine Oil Cooler
10. Leaking rear shocks
11. Bad tie rod end
12. Steering gear box has excessive play in it?

The dealer said the right front axle shaft has an 1.5"!!! of up/down play in it keeping the vacuum seals from working and engaging the automatic hubs. EGR and Engine coolers are just starting to plug up, there should only be a 13 degree difference, right now I have a 25 degree. I'm glad the dealer caught this for me before I wrecked the motor!

The cruise control needs an $1100 PCM to work, supposedly the circuit failed inside the brain box. A fuse would of been too easy!

The quote the dealership sent over is at $5300 so far and he hasn't even worked up the cost for the front end work yet....

The boss freaked out....

The shop bought the truck used at 85000 miles, I don't know if this one is going to pencil out. Gets 12.5 MPG, the loaner Dodge 4 door 4wd, same as my pickup except mine has an extended cab instead, gets 16.5 mpg but it isn't tooled up either though. So maybe the MPG would even out, the Dodge seems to have a lot more get up and go too!

Keep an eye on your 6.0 liter!!
 
Last edited:

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Guess what? My 05 6.0 with 107000 miles is in the shop now.
Dealer finds more, Fulthrottl nailed the first two:

8. EGR Cooler
9. Engine Oil Cooler

EGR and Engine coolers are just starting to plug up, there should only be
a 13 degree difference, right now I have a 25 degree. I'm glad the dealer
caught this for me before I wrecked the motor!

The cruise control needs an $1100 PCM to work, supposedly the circuit
failed inside the brain box. A fuse would of been too easy!

The quote the dealership sent over is at $5300 so far and he hasn't
even worked up the cost for the front end work yet....

The boss freaked out....
just my gut, i'm hollering BS on the cruise control.

powertrain control modules (PCM) usually don't go
bad, there is something else going on... that's my
gut call on that one.

a 25 degree delta between engine oil temp and
engine coolant tem is not "starting to go bad".
i had a 25 degree delta on mine, and the EGR
cooler had failed, leaking coolant into the intake
manifold, causing stretched head bolts, and blown
head gaskets.

if you look at the coolant catch jug, and it has white
crusty stuff around the filler, or when you stick
your foot in it hard, you get a whistle, sort of like
a teakettle, you probably have leaking head gaskets
as well as the EGR cooler being bad.

by '05 ford was on it's third supplier of head bolts,
and while they are better, water in the intake
is the kiss of death for the head gaskets. it doesn't
take much.

for those of you folks running a ford 6.0 diesel,
vintage '03-> the single best thing you can do
to save yourself a HUGE amount of money is to
get a scanguage II at autozone for about $160,
and set it up to monitor some vital engine readings.

and change your engine oil every 5,000 miles....
this diesel isn't your mommy's diesel... it has
HEUI injectors that use engine oil to hydraulically
operate the fuel injectors, and the load on the oil
is horrific. the oil shears at a molecular level,
and breaks down.... not the additives to the oil,
the oil itself... this leads to damaged injectors
from scuffing.... amsoil will still test fine, and
the shear will let the injectors suffer. don't run
extended drain intervals on this motor.

also, RUNNING THIS ENGINE TYPE OUT OF FUEL
IN MANY CASES WILL DAMAGE THE INJECTORS
BEYOND REPAIR. air in the fuel system can break
off injector tips.

you ran your truck out of fuel? bummer. broken injector tips. $4,000 repair
you put the wrong coolant in the truck? bummer. oil cooler failure. $5,000 repair
you used a aftermarket oil filter? bummer. HPOP failure. $3,000 repair
you let the batteries get almost dead, and then tried to start it? bummer. FICM failure. $1,300 repair
you put a bully dog tuner on the motor, and broke the tranny? bummer. $4,500 repair
you used aftermarket fuel filters? bummer. water in fuel... and the list goes on.

and 'cause "the dealer" said it's broken, doesn't mean squat.
i went to a highly recommended dealer, with the thing smoking
enough white steam to kill every mosquito in four counties, and
the idjit service writer told me my 2006 was "regenerating" and
that was normal. nothing to worry about.

regeneration wasn't adopted on the 6.0 until 2007.
idjit. blithering idjit. and that was the most highly recommended
ford truck dealership in 100 miles of where i live.
 
Last edited:

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
If nothing else, its bad when the customer knows more about the truck than the dealer, insult to injury.
That reminds me when I bought a new Pontiac sunbird with a 4cy4sp that I bought for my wife. It was probably one of the biggest piles of crap that I ever bought but it was a very nice looking car, metallic blue with a blue landau top, spoked wire wheel type hubcaps, etc. She had a problem with it hesitating big time when she tried to accelerate to enter the interstate.
We were going on vacation and left the car at the Pontiac dealer for a whole week expecting it to be fixed when we returned. Ya, right, same problem.
I had been dong some reading and found that Buick used the same power train and had a service bulletin on that exact same problem. I went to the Buick service counter and asked them if I could have a photo copy of the bulletin which they did. I gave the $5 (probably like $20 in today?s money) for their trouble and drove my wife's sunbird back to the Pontiac service garage, pull in and handed the service bulletin to the manager and said "here, fix it." They finally fixed it.
Sometime there are people that have to work very hard to rise to the level of their incompetence.;)
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
If nothing else, its bad when the customer knows more about the truck than the dealer, insult to injury.
i've had very poor experience with ford dealers, going back to 1978.

the one that sold me this van had to reflash the computer to enable
the cruise control, which was an add for me. they took it out to test
drive it, and crossed a RR crossing, getting enough big air to break
the windshield when it landed, right in the center from the flexing.

every tool and material item in the back of the van looked like it had
been poured into a large can, and shaken.

broken windsheld, front wheels out of alignment, 220 miles.
welcome to ford service.

they denied the whole thing, claimed i broke the windshield.
i had already welded strut on the floor of the van for the racking,
and i told them they could either fix it or take it back.

the second windshield they put in was pretty deeply scratched
on the passenger side, right at eye level.

the third windshield they put in was 1/2" off center.

the fourth windshield they put in is still there, but in running
a razor around the windshield pocket, they scored the paint,
leading to the body rusting thru along the top of the windsheld,
leading to a leak.

i have some rust bullet, and a plan to pull off the rubber molding,
and fix the rust with the rust bullet, and silicone it back up.

with the experience of the 6.0, coupled with the experience of
ford service, i'll never have anything to do with a ford product
again, and i've been driving fords since 1972.
 

norcal

Senior Member
i've had very poor experience with ford dealers, going back to 1978.

the one that sold me this van had to reflash the computer to enable
the cruise control, which was an add for me. they took it out to test
drive it, and crossed a RR crossing, getting enough big air to break
the windshield when it landed, right in the center from the flexing.

every tool and material item in the back of the van looked like it had
been poured into a large can, and shaken.

broken windsheld, front wheels out of alignment, 220 miles.
welcome to ford service.

they denied the whole thing, claimed i broke the windshield.
i had already welded strut on the floor of the van for the racking,
and i told them they could either fix it or take it back.

the second windshield they put in was pretty deeply scratched
on the passenger side, right at eye level.

the third windshield they put in was 1/2" off center.

the fourth windshield they put in is still there, but in running
a razor around the windshield pocket, they scored the paint,
leading to the body rusting thru along the top of the windsheld,
leading to a leak.

i have some rust bullet, and a plan to pull off the rubber molding,
and fix the rust with the rust bullet, and silicone it back up.

with the experience of the 6.0, coupled with the experience of
ford service, i'll never have anything to do with a ford product
again, and i've been driving fords since 1972.
I have been hearing about Ford's getting Cummins conversions, but since 1998 & newer diesels in CA have to have smog inspections, doubt it would fly in California, but who knows it may pass muster. Good luck w/ your van, I sniveled about $800 for new upper & lower ball joints for my Dodge but w/ over 200K on it & the OEM ones had no zerk fittings for lubrication, that was the most spent on the truck in the 6 years I have owned it....
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If nothing else, its bad when the customer knows more about the truck than the dealer, insult to injury.
:lol:
Of course people like to complain here about customers that think they know more about electrical than electricians.

There are very good auto mechanics out there. They are hard to find, and if you find one they are hard to get appointments with for good reason. Only go to dealers (in general) with warranty issues, after warranty is expired get someone that knows what they are doing. And Fulthrotl - the experience you described sounds like mostly dealer repair shop problems and not Ford problems. Not saying Ford, or any other automaker never had problems with a vehicle, or several vehicles and similar components, at times, but they made things worse than they were, with their own activity.

i've had very poor experience with ford dealers, going back to 1978.

the one that sold me this van had to reflash the computer to enable
the cruise control, which was an add for me. they took it out to test
drive it, and crossed a RR crossing, getting enough big air to break
the windshield when it landed, right in the center from the flexing.

every tool and material item in the back of the van looked like it had
been poured into a large can, and shaken.

broken windsheld, front wheels out of alignment, 220 miles.
welcome to ford service.

they denied the whole thing, claimed i broke the windshield.
i had already welded strut on the floor of the van for the racking,
and i told them they could either fix it or take it back.

the second windshield they put in was pretty deeply scratched
on the passenger side, right at eye level.

the third windshield they put in was 1/2" off center.

the fourth windshield they put in is still there, but in running
a razor around the windshield pocket, they scored the paint,
leading to the body rusting thru along the top of the windsheld,
leading to a leak.

i have some rust bullet, and a plan to pull off the rubber molding,
and fix the rust with the rust bullet, and silicone it back up.

with the experience of the 6.0, coupled with the experience of
ford service, i'll never have anything to do with a ford product
again, and i've been driving fords since 1972.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
:lol:
And Fulthrotl - the experience you described sounds like mostly dealer repair shop problems and not Ford problems. Not saying Ford, or any other automaker never had problems with a vehicle, or several vehicles and similar components, at times, but they made things worse than they were, with their own activity.
The problems I had a few years ago happened to be Chevy not Ford but makes me emphasize with Fulthrotl's situation.

I feel like the incompetent Ford dealer is a Ford problem, we don't buy Fords from the factory, we buy from authorized dealer.

And like I say not meaning to single out Ford (even though Ford dealer in Clayton, Georgia was the reason I bought the new '87 Chevy truck that I later had headaches with).
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
The problems I had a few years ago happened to be Chevy not Ford but makes me emphasize with Fulthrotl's situation.

I feel like the incompetent Ford dealer is a Ford problem, we don't buy Fords from the factory, we buy from authorized dealer.

And like I say not meaning to single out Ford (even though Ford dealer in Clayton, Georgia was the reason I bought the new '87 Chevy truck that I later had headaches with).
It is not only the domestic dealers that are incompetent either, I went thru four different Toyota dealers in two different states that kept throwing fuel pumps on my Tundra, after the last dealer failed to fix the problem (didn't get 5 miles from the dealer) they said "We noticed the electrical connector on the fuel pump was cracked" after they got it back, which was what I thought the problem was before the first pump was put on.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
There are very good auto mechanics out there. They are hard to find, and if you find
one they are hard to get appointments with for good reason. Only go to dealers
(in general) with warranty issues, after warranty is expired get someone that knows
what they are doing. And Fulthrotl - the experience you described sounds like mostly
dealer repair shop problems and not Ford problems. Not saying Ford, or any other
automaker never had problems with a vehicle, or several vehicles and similar
components, at times, but they made things worse than they were, with their own
activity.
i've never sought out a dealer unless it was a factory warranty issue.

my last econoline purchased new, went 488,000 without so much
as a valve job... and it never saw the inside of a dealership.
i did burn up it's transmission in a sandwash once, fueled by
half a fifth of jack, and had to drive it 30 miles backwards, drunk,
to get it home, but i can't fault the trans for that now, can i?
reverse and park were all that were left. the rest were neutrals...

and there are good mechanics working for ford dealerships.... one
of the online diesel forums has a number of them, and they help
out hugely, and the advice is excellent.

they are in places like british columbia, texas, minnesota....
nowhere near me... ;-)
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
i've never sought out a dealer unless it was a factory warranty issue.

my last econoline purchased new, went 488,000 without so much
as a valve job... and it never saw the inside of a dealership.
i did burn up it's transmission in a sandwash once, fueled by
half a fifth of jack, and had to drive it 30 miles backwards, drunk,
to get it home, but i can't fault the trans for that now, can i?
reverse and park were all that were left. the rest were neutrals...

and there are good mechanics working for ford dealerships.... one
of the online diesel forums has a number of them, and they help
out hugely, and the advice is excellent.

they are in places like british columbia, texas, minnesota....
nowhere near me... ;-)
I'm impressed that you could back truck 30 miles without having to use the other half of fifth:)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Dealers are not direct representatives of Ford, GM, Chrysler, but are closer to that status than a car sales place that is not a Ford dealer, or GM, etc. Then there are some of the super dealerships that are authorized dealers for multiple lines. They are all more less locally owned franchisee's. Ford, GM, etc. can set some rules they want followed or they will take away the authorized dealer status. When it comes to out of warranty issues with vehicles - Ford, GM, etc. is not going to care what happens with any service that goes through the shop. You also don't have to get warranty work done at a dealership but is much less hassle if you do because they generally will be authorized to do the warranty work.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
I'm impressed that you could back truck 30 miles without having to use the other half of fifth:)
i never said that.

i said it took half a bottle of jack to burn up the trans....
i did NOT say which half of the bottle it was, did i?

i was climbing a saddle near bell mountain in the mojave
desert, to commune with a full moon, and a less than full
bottle of whiskey. the moon was bright, the bourbon was
smooth, and then the time came to unmount the saddle,
backing down backwards..... there wasn't much whiskey
left... and i couldn't get enough speed in the sandwash
to get up on top of the sand, so i plowed, and burned up
the torque converter, and fed the shavings thru the valve
body...

i put the hood up, turned the flashers on, and backed down
the shoulder of bear valley cutoff towards home. i had a
trans funnel left in the dipstick tube, and half a case of
trans fluid bought at the circle k, with another bottle of
whiskey... i'd back up till i ran so low on fluid it wouldn't
go, get out and pour in a few quarts of fluid, take a swig,
and back up some more..... got home about 3 am....

there's a reason i don't drink any more.... it's a pretty good
one.... the tragic part, is about six months before i quit, my
mom said... "if you'd give up the drugs, and just drink, you'd
last longer...."

her highest aspiration for me at that point is that i could
improve myself to being a drunk. what a relief... it's easier
to look good, when you set the bar low.... :p
 

Mike Lang

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Fortunately I've never had a truck with a diesel except a medium duty GMC 7500 with a cat 3116. Be carefull with the new 6.7 Fords as well I have a few landscaper friends with them and they've had many problems even at around 30K. Apparently the cab has to be removed to work on the engine in some cases. I can't speak for the GM diesels since I haven't had one or really know anyone with one. I bought a new truck last year (GMC Sierra 3500 utility) and was on the fence between gas or diesel, I'm glad I went with gas. Alot of the utility companies near me are going back to gas for their light duty trucks.
The truck weighs 9800 lbs with tools and I just get 10 mpg if I watch how I drive. If step on it I haven't seen any worse than 9.2 mpg. I'm expecting to get 250,000 out of it with minor repairs along the way.
Unless you're towing heavy equipment or trailers go with gas until the diesels have a better track record.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
Fortunately I've never had a truck with a diesel except a medium duty GMC 7500 with a cat 3116. Be carefull with the new 6.7 Fords as well I have a few landscaper friends with them and they've had many problems even at around 30K. Apparently the cab has to be removed to work on the engine in some cases.

Unless you're towing heavy equipment or trailers go with gas until the diesels have a better track record.
cab off is pretty common for diesels.... it's not that bad to pull the cab...
and it saves a lot of misery working on stuff.

the brand new "scorpion" diesel is a technological wonder. i wouldn't own one.
if you read the warranty, "WIF" is not covered under powertrain warranty.

water in fuel sets a check engine light when about three tablespoons of water
is in the separator. you open the petcock and drain it. no big deal. light goes out.

and a counter in the PCM makes a note. it cannot be erased. reflashing, loading
tunes, nothing gets rid of that counter.

when your fuel system goes kerflooie, and you come in on the end of a rope,
they look at how many times you have water in fuel..... too many, and VOILA!
fuel system is disallowed from warranty service.

how much does it cost to replace a pump and injectors that spray hard enough
to cut steel?

above $15,000.... the number $18k has been mentioned a lot by screaming
customers on forums.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Got an F-350 with the V-10 it's eight years old and so far I've put tires, brakes and a battery in it.

I quit drinking when someone told me that I was just like my father.:happysad:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Fortunately I've never had a truck with a diesel except a medium duty GMC 7500 with a cat 3116. Be carefull with the new 6.7 Fords as well I have a few landscaper friends with them and they've had many problems even at around 30K. Apparently the cab has to be removed to work on the engine in some cases. I can't speak for the GM diesels since I haven't had one or really know anyone with one. I bought a new truck last year (GMC Sierra 3500 utility) and was on the fence between gas or diesel, I'm glad I went with gas. Alot of the utility companies near me are going back to gas for their light duty trucks.
The truck weighs 9800 lbs with tools and I just get 10 mpg if I watch how I drive. If step on it I haven't seen any worse than 9.2 mpg. I'm expecting to get 250,000 out of it with minor repairs along the way.
Unless you're towing heavy equipment or trailers go with gas until the diesels have a better track record.
I have 2004 Dodge with Cummins diesel. One of the most popular diesel trucks around this area, have not heard too many complaints about them, most people that have one seem to like it. They have lot of power if needed to pull something, and if not pulling heavy load you can get 18-20 MPG instead of 8-10 like many gasoline engines.
 

tx2step

Senior Member
I've got a 2000 Ford F350 with the old turbocharged 7.3L and around 180,000 miles on it. I used to pull my 13,000 pound 5th wheel with it, but finally got rid of that. Pulling that trailer, I would get around 14-15 mpg. Unloaded, it'll get around 18-20 mpg on the road and around 16-18 mpg in town. So far, I've only had fairly minor problems with it - I think the largest single problem so far was replacing the water pump. I'm starting to get a little nervous though -- nothing particular, just kinda worried about the number of miles and it being 12+ years old. If I had to get another diesel, I'd probably go with the Dodge with the cummins engine (assuming its still the same basic engine that's it's been for a while).
 
My dad taught me years ago that a car (truck) is nothing but a bunch of nuts and bolts with a couple other pieces thrown in. So I turn my own wrenches , I figured if I can Install and repair Electrical items all day I should be able to repair my own truck. I have a 7.3 powertroke that the engine crap at only 220000. Did a complete rebuild using factory parts and paid a machinest to do the engine work cost about $4500(parts and $1600 for machine work) and 50 hrs of my time because the machinest f up and put the oil pump in backwards I had to repull the engine. This was the first engine I ever pulled go figure the heaviest engine they make and my dad was correct nothing but nuts and bolts ;) I'm a one man shop so if my trucks not working neither am I so I all was figured it was faster if I turned my own wrenches and it saved me from being ripped off by mechanics.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My dad taught me years ago that a car (truck) is nothing but a bunch of nuts and bolts with a couple other pieces thrown in. So I turn my own wrenches , I figured if I can Install and repair Electrical items all day I should be able to repair my own truck. I have a 7.3 powertroke that the engine crap at only 220000. Did a complete rebuild using factory parts and paid a machinest to do the engine work cost about $4500(parts and $1600 for machine work) and 50 hrs of my time because the machinest f up and put the oil pump in backwards I had to repull the engine. This was the first engine I ever pulled go figure the heaviest engine they make and my dad was correct nothing but nuts and bolts ;) I'm a one man shop so if my trucks not working neither am I so I all was figured it was faster if I turned my own wrenches and it saved me from being ripped off by mechanics.
I'm sure many mechanics all feel that electricians try to rip them off also, so please don't complain when you run into something electrical they have tried to do either unsuccessfully or that is not safe or code compliant.

Automobile work is not as simple as it once was, and there is a lot more inside the engine than a bunch of bolts. Not saying you can not tear an engine apart and successfully put it back together again, but there are things that if not done correctly, tightened to proper torque, avoid dirt, water, other foreign materials, you can really mess something up.

Plus while you were saving your money doing it yourself you also were not making any money doing what you normally do for pay - just saying. I do simple repairs, oil changes, etc. my father was a mechanic, and I have been deeply involved in many aspects of automobiles because of that. I still have most major work done by a repair shop - you need to find one you trust and stick with them. They can get the job done faster than I can, have the right tools, and if they mess up it is their problem not mine. If you got all done with your overhaul and forgot to put oil in before starting up who pays for the needed overhaul? Certainly not the repair shop that was going to rip you off.

Maybe you could perform your own medical procedures because the health care system rips everyone off also.:happyyes:

There are professionals in any trade or practice that rip people off. Everyone makes mistakes at some time also. There are also professionals that are very fair and very good at what they do.

I used to feel a little the way you do, there is not much out there I can't do or figure out how to do. But experience has now convinced me that even if I know how to do something, doesn't mean I have to do everything or can necessarily afford to do everything. If you stand to lose more than you may make because you are not working while doing such tasks it becomes somewhat of a no brainer.
 
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