FPE panel changeout

[Greg Swartz]

We've been getting a lot of requests to change out FPE panels.
On one of my inspections, an inspector told me that someone made a retrofit kit, and sure enough, Cutler Hammer does.

So, I called the supply houses that sell Cutler-Hammer, and none of them even knew what I was talking about...

So, question is... does anyone here use these, and if so, where do YOU buy them, and for how much?
Also, does it work out well for you?

We're changing one out today (well, one of my guys is...) and there's drywall damage, which comes out of my profit... and at $1100, there's not much profit to be had...

$250 in materials, $250 in electrician labor, $110 in permits, $150 in drywall repair, $150 in my time, $50 meeting with the inspector, $??? advertising, $??? fuel, etc... it all adds up...

 

[satcom]

Just wondering, how your going to explain the the customer, they need to pay almost that amount over again when the meter base, and riser falls apart?

Once we open the meter, we need to bring up grounding and bonding, 2 ground rods, water heater bond, and water meter bond.

And will you have the wiring space you need? with the replacement panel, or will you fight it all the way.

Our business is strange we want to make money with profitable jobs, I my opinon replacement panels create problems and reduce profit. Let us know how it worked out.

 

[iwire]

Greg I think you will find a few of the members here using the CH replacements and they are making money doing so.

 

[Greg Swartz]

FPE panels are "special"

FPE panels are "special"

Just wondering, how your going to explain the the customer, they need to pay almost that amount over again when the meter base, and riser falls apart?

Once we open the meter, we need to bring up grounding and bonding, 2 ground rods, water heater bond, and water meter bond.

And will you have the wiring space you need? with the replacement panel, or will you fight it all the way.

Our business is strange we want to make money with profitable jobs, I my opinon replacement panels create problems and reduce profit. Let us know how it worked out.

Satcom,
In Colorado Springs, FPE panels have a special status... they are considered a "damaged panel." When replacing them, assuming there is NO UPGRADE, we can do a 1 - for - 1 change out. No grounding issues, no bonding issues, no wire changing issues, nothing! Straight 1-for-1.

I learned this last year when I told the inspector, and showed him a letter from the HO's insurance agency requiring it. He told me that if it were not so, he would have required.... (long laundry list)

So, lesson learned... $1100 is bottom line price for change outs. There is a company here in COS who (on their permit price) says they are charging $600. I don't know how, that is less than my costs before advertising... I think they are lying on their permit to lower their permit price. That is a huge price to pay if they get caught though...

I looked at April's permit costs, and most companies were charging $1200 - $1500 for panel upgrades. A couple were as high as $2400...

 

[satcom]

Satcom,
In Colorado Springs, FPE panels have a special status... they are considered a "damaged panel." When replacing them, assuming there is NO UPGRADE, we can do a 1 - for - 1 change out. No grounding issues, no bonding issues, no wire changing issues, nothing! Straight 1-for-1.

I learned this last year when I told the inspector, and showed him a letter from the HO's insurance agency requiring it. He told me that if it were not so, he would have required.... (long laundry list)

So, lesson learned... $1100 is bottom line price for change outs. There is a company here in COS who (on their permit price) says they are charging $600. I don't know how, that is less than my costs before advertising... I think they are lying on their permit to lower their permit price. That is a huge price to pay if they get caught though...

I looked at April's permit costs, and most companies were charging $1200 - $1500 for panel upgrades. A couple were as high as $2400...

Greg, once we open the meter no special treatment we must upgrade the grounding, but my concern is where we had guys changing just the panel, and shortly after the meter base and riser needed replacing, that was my question, will you replace the meter base they are usually reduced to rot ams if the riser is cable it may also be rot, there are conditions whare a panel only may work, but some remod jobs offer a challange.

 

[goldstar]

It looks like you're between a rock and a hard place with others doing the jobs for $600. But, I'm with Satcom on this. While it may not be a requirement to upgrade the entire service out there in Colorado and it may seem like you're doing your customer a favor, in reality you may not not really be doing them a service. Make sure you inspect the entire service before you simply replace just the breaker panel or you'll end up back in a week - a month - or a year to replace the meter pan and/or SE cable.

I'm just curious to know about the retrofit kits and what comes with them. Is it just breaker replacement or are you changing out the entire panel ?

 

[iwire]

It drives me nuts when people do not listen to the OPs questions and responses.

Just assume the rest of the service is fine and the only reason for the replacement is the fact the person does not want the FPE panel anymore.

All the rest is between the customer, the EC and the inspector.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

It looks like you're between a rock and a hard place with others doing the jobs for $600. But, I'm with Satcom on this. While it may not be a requirement to upgrade the entire service out there in Colorado and it may seem like you're doing your customer a favor, in reality you may not not really be doing them a service. Make sure you inspect the entire service before you simply replace just the breaker panel or you'll end up back in a week - a month - or a year to replace the meter pan and/or SE cable.

I'm just curious to know about the retrofit kits and what comes with them. Is it just breaker replacement or are you changing out the entire panel ?

Not for nothing, but the idea that a FPE panels lifecycle is in any way related to the lifecycles of the meter pan, or the service entrance, or anything else for that matter is just wild speculation.

For whatever reason a customer is replacing a FPE panel, insurance requirement, failure, nervousness... it's not equally applicable to every other part of the service.

BTW I've seen homes of equal age where the original service looks to be in better condition than the next door neighbor's 3-5 year old 200a upgrade.

 

[goldstar]

It drives me nuts when people do not listen to the OPs questions and responses

Bob, I thought that's what we supposed to do here in the forum.:-? Satcom and I both read exactly what the OP said but added additional comments. We electricians are a little strange here in NJ. When we cut the tag on the meter we have an obligation to the customer, the POCO and to our reputations to make sure that when we re-energize the service it will work for more that a few days. You, of all people, should know that making assumptions is not the best policy. Should we ASSUME that once the OP gets an answer all others should stop posting ?

I've been in my house since 1976. The house was 7 years old when I purchased it and it had a 100 amp FPE panel. It was clean, the SE cable was in great shape and the breakers tripped just fine. I didn't replace it until last year. Yet, in most of the residences I've been in with FPE panels, not only was the panel corroded but the rest of the service was in very poor shape. Thus, the reason for my comments.

Sorry I pissed you off.

Regards (and with great affection) ,

Phil

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't think you pissed Bob off, but nobody has answered the OP's question. All he want's to know is has anybody used the retrofit kit and how did it work out.

I'm sorry I can't answer his question because I've never seen the kit he is talking about, but I would be curious as to how it works out.

I brought this up the other day, when I ask a question on a test or an interview, just answer the question, don't overthink it. As an inspector I had a contractor get all huffy the other day because I made him change something out, he told me that he had called me and asked if it was OK, I told him that I answered the question he asked, it was up to him to let me know that the manufactures instructions said something else.

 

[satcom]

Bob, I thought that's what we supposed to do here in the forum.:-? Satcom and I both read exactly what the OP said but added additional comments. We electricians are a little strange here in NJ. When we cut the tag on the meter we have an obligation to the customer, the POCO and to our reputations to make sure that when we re-energize the service it will work for more that a few days. You, of all people, should know that making assumptions is not the best policy. Should we ASSUME that once the OP gets an answer all others should stop posting ?

I've been in my house since 1976. The house was 7 years old when I purchased it and it had a 100 amp FPE panel. It was clean, the SE cable was in great shape and the breakers tripped just fine. I didn't replace it until last year. Yet, in most of the residences I've been in with FPE panels, not only was the panel corroded but the rest of the service was in very poor shape. Thus, the reason for my comments.

Sorry I pissed you off.

Regards (and with great affection) ,

Phil

We used CH panels going back 3 generations, and we tried one replacement kit, It installled easy and was a nice kit, but and i can assure you, it was one of the biggest mistakes we ever made, and from our past experience we knew replacing only the panel was a problem, a good amount of of our work is replacing the risers, and meter sockets, in jobs where the previous EC installed the panel only, and that is why i said it is not a profit making job, you may make some up front money, only to loose the customer, when they need to finish the job, usually not long after the panel only job, Greg has worked long, and hard to build his business, and i know he would want to be known for doing first class work, not have any customer complaints, there is more to the answer then did anyone use the panels, if you want to help the OP.

One thing we did consider was using the kit buut doing the riser and meter.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I bring up all the time that it is all about the difference in locals. Here we only use all in ones, so it would be a moot point as to whether he had to change out the meter socket and upgrade the grounding.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Gentlemen, gentlemen...

Gentlemen, gentlemen...

Thank you everyone for your responses.

I don't want anyone pissed at anyone else. We're all respectible businessmen here. In fact, that's one of the things I like about this forum... You guys here are my pool of knowledge. We're not competitors, we're here helping each other grow our businesses.

Yes indeed, I have worked long and hard at building my business, and in 3 months I will be an Electrical Engineer (as if running a business isn't hard enough!). I want EVERYONE to know that I run a first class outfit.

That is something the other contractors need to know first, and homeowners need to know second (just because of larger jobs and volume of work.)

I am interested in the CH retrofits. Talked to a supply house rep today about it. They may bring them in. Told him I'd probably buy a few a month.
But some of you see through the whole question, and into the processes behind it and tell me your experience.

To those who answered the question: Thanks.
To those who answered the unasked question: Thanks also.

Look forward to being the posts more, but school is quite taxing... considering I won't get out until after 11:00 PM tonight...

Greg

 

[Greg Swartz]

Aio

Aio

I bring up all the time that it is all about the difference in locals. Here we only use all in ones, so it would be a moot point as to whether he had to change out the meter socket and upgrade the grounding.

I don't use those much out here in Colorado.

I know an EC out here that does, and he swears by them.

Last time I used an AIO, it was a Homeline, and the service was overhead, and the previous panel was inside, and the previous meter at 7'...

Needless to say, we had lots of problems.

In retrospect, there were several things I could have done differently to make the job smoother.

Greg

 

[cowboyjwc]

Yeah our son live is Littleton so I would probably not be as inclined to install an AIO out there either.

I was up in your area last summer. Went to the Royal Gorge and to the Rodeo Hall of Fame. Nice area. Having another grandbaby in July and will probably be up that way again this summer.

 

[brian john]

IMO:

AND Strictly my opinion I DO NOT DO RESIDENTIAL (except by error).

If the FPE panel has not been damaged to date and knowing the minimum age of these panels. I would try to up sell to a change out, because the other distribution equipment has as much wear.

Now if you use SEC cable I would have to think the jacket has taken as much abuse as the panel (assuming the panel does not have thermal damage) over the years.

Plus ALSO MY OPINION...If a guy wants to under sell by that much, and you are hardly making anything at you price LOOK FOR OTHER WORK.

 

[Greg Swartz]

IMO:

AND Strictly my opinion I DO NOT DO RESIDENTIAL (except by error).

If the FPE panel has not been damaged to date and knowing the minimum age of these panels. I would try to up sell to a change out, because the other distribution equipment has as much wear.

Now if you use SEC cable I would have to think the jacket has taken as much abuse as the panel (assuming the panel does not have thermal damage) over the years.

Plus ALSO MY OPINION...If a guy wants to under sell by that much, and you are hardly making anything at you price LOOK FOR OTHER WORK.

Conduit only... SE cable only inside the house... Conduit outside, whether it's EMT, GRC, or PVC... it's conduit.

I don't know how the eastern states get away with not using conduit for protection of their service entrance feeders.

By the way, I never used to do residential either...

 

[iwire]

I don't know how the eastern states get away with not using conduit for protection of their service entrance feeders.

Because the NEC allows it.

 

[iwire]

I am more then happy to re-wire an entire building or just a small piece works work, price whatever part you do accordingly.

 

[iwire]

I don't think you pissed Bob off, but nobody has answered the OP's question. All he want's to know is has anybody used the retrofit kit and how did it work out.

Thank you. :smile:

You are 100% correct, I was not POed, just aggravated that no one was even attempting to answer the mans question.