Freak Accident:
- Thread starter rattus
- Start date
- Status
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Freak Accident:
Do you have any additonal information on this such as a news article or website describing the details? Thanks
Do you have any additonal information on this such as a news article or website describing the details? Thanks
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:
I had clipped a related article from this morning's Seattle Times, and had intended to post the sad news. Thank you, rattus, for bringing this to the attention of the membership.
We have had several discussions in the past about the status of a baptismal pool, in the context of article 680. I don't recall any consensus having been reached. I do recall that different religious communities conduct their baptism services in different ways. Mine does not involve whole-body immersion, but rather the pouring of water over the head. So the safety implications of electricity in close proximity to a baptismal ceremony would never have occurred to me.
Now a community has to deal with a tragedy, and some local electrical professional will be called in to determine the cause. I hope that whoever you are, you will share the results of your investigation with the membership of this Forum. I know we all share in the grief of the family and the church community. I also know we would be grateful for any information that we could then use to prevent a future tragedy from occurring in our own communities.
May God bless and comfort his family and friends.
I had clipped a related article from this morning's Seattle Times, and had intended to post the sad news. Thank you, rattus, for bringing this to the attention of the membership.
We have had several discussions in the past about the status of a baptismal pool, in the context of article 680. I don't recall any consensus having been reached. I do recall that different religious communities conduct their baptism services in different ways. Mine does not involve whole-body immersion, but rather the pouring of water over the head. So the safety implications of electricity in close proximity to a baptismal ceremony would never have occurred to me.
Now a community has to deal with a tragedy, and some local electrical professional will be called in to determine the cause. I hope that whoever you are, you will share the results of your investigation with the membership of this Forum. I know we all share in the grief of the family and the church community. I also know we would be grateful for any information that we could then use to prevent a future tragedy from occurring in our own communities.
May God bless and comfort his family and friends.
Re: Freak Accident:
The article appeared in today's Dallas News. The link provided by petersonra provides essentially the same information.
This incident makes the case for wireless mikes.
I am sure that many pieces of equipment become electrified, and it is the absence of a low Z path that prevents more tragedies such as this. Most victims receive a tingle or a nasty jolt, but the circumstances here set the stage for the perfect accident.
The article appeared in today's Dallas News. The link provided by petersonra provides essentially the same information.
This incident makes the case for wireless mikes.
I am sure that many pieces of equipment become electrified, and it is the absence of a low Z path that prevents more tragedies such as this. Most victims receive a tingle or a nasty jolt, but the circumstances here set the stage for the perfect accident.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:
I would not have thought there would be lethal voltage levels in a microphone cable. I know the body resistance is less, when the body is immersed. But isn't a mike run on just "signal voltage levels"? Can someone enlighten me on this?
I would not have thought there would be lethal voltage levels in a microphone cable. I know the body resistance is less, when the body is immersed. But isn't a mike run on just "signal voltage levels"? Can someone enlighten me on this?
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Freak Accident:
Truly very sad.Yes the mike is connected to the ground.But even so there could be enough volts to kill between that ground and the tank water.And perhaps they will even find a bad or lossed ground.All part of why we should run a grounding conductor in emt.One should not touch anything with a cord on it while in water.Not even a phone.Basically he was in a pool and all the same safeguards should have been followed.Cordless would have saved him.Perhaps somehow the word could reach other churches so this need never happen again
Truly very sad.Yes the mike is connected to the ground.But even so there could be enough volts to kill between that ground and the tank water.And perhaps they will even find a bad or lossed ground.All part of why we should run a grounding conductor in emt.One should not touch anything with a cord on it while in water.Not even a phone.Basically he was in a pool and all the same safeguards should have been followed.Cordless would have saved him.Perhaps somehow the word could reach other churches so this need never happen again
Re: Freak Accident:
And the simple improper use of an expension cord that powers the amplifier. Was there an adapter used to defeat the EGC, a simple 2w extension cord, a defect in the EGC, broken ground EGC ground plug? All thinks that are either overlooked or disregarded by people who don't have a clue or know the importance of proper grounding. Never the less, even if all of the safety precautions were met and a GFCI outlet was used it would be in your wildest dreams that I would ever allow a wired mic be used in such a manor.
At least purchase an inexpensive cordless mic.
And the simple improper use of an expension cord that powers the amplifier. Was there an adapter used to defeat the EGC, a simple 2w extension cord, a defect in the EGC, broken ground EGC ground plug? All thinks that are either overlooked or disregarded by people who don't have a clue or know the importance of proper grounding. Never the less, even if all of the safety precautions were met and a GFCI outlet was used it would be in your wildest dreams that I would ever allow a wired mic be used in such a manor.
At least purchase an inexpensive cordless mic.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Freak Accident:
There have been a few articles wrote on the dangers of sound equipment and the hack jobs roadies/sound men do when wiring the equipment, one of the most common is to lift the grounding conductor, This is done to remove the 60hz hum that is caused by parallel neutral currents flowing in the grounding systems, and shielding between audio equipment, This is a big danger that many (Roadies/Sound men) don't realize that someone can be killed as a result. There has been a few singers killed from this also one was a famous rock star.
The name escapes me right now but I will try to do a comprehensive search on this subject to list as many as I can find. It's more of a problem than we hear about.
I find that en-lite of this very common problem that equipment manufactures have not made changes to isolate their signal shields from the power supply grounding.
There is no reason to have the two tied together period!
I have found many times 50 volts or more on the shielding to a known good ground that was the result of a complaint of someone getting a tingle from a Mic or a guitar or other equipment.
GFCI protection of stage equipment should be a requirement and enforced, This would stop many of the circulating neutral current when they keep tripping the GFCI's they have to be repaired.
[ November 01, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
There have been a few articles wrote on the dangers of sound equipment and the hack jobs roadies/sound men do when wiring the equipment, one of the most common is to lift the grounding conductor, This is done to remove the 60hz hum that is caused by parallel neutral currents flowing in the grounding systems, and shielding between audio equipment, This is a big danger that many (Roadies/Sound men) don't realize that someone can be killed as a result. There has been a few singers killed from this also one was a famous rock star.
The name escapes me right now but I will try to do a comprehensive search on this subject to list as many as I can find. It's more of a problem than we hear about.
I find that en-lite of this very common problem that equipment manufactures have not made changes to isolate their signal shields from the power supply grounding.
There is no reason to have the two tied together period!
I have found many times 50 volts or more on the shielding to a known good ground that was the result of a complaint of someone getting a tingle from a Mic or a guitar or other equipment.
GFCI protection of stage equipment should be a requirement and enforced, This would stop many of the circulating neutral current when they keep tripping the GFCI's they have to be repaired.
[ November 01, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:
From my old days in a garage band, I remeber a "phantom" voltage that was required for condenser mics. See the following excerpt:
"Because the condenser microphone must have a continuous, stable DC voltage to bias the membrane, it is common practice to supply that voltage from the sound mixing board. The voltage is applied via one of the microphone leads, typically 48 volts, and is commonly referred to as "phantom power". Since the alternative is a battery supplied bias, with the risk that a battery can go out in mid performance, the phantom power provision from mixing boards is useful."
I would guess that this is what got the subject shocked.
Mark
From my old days in a garage band, I remeber a "phantom" voltage that was required for condenser mics. See the following excerpt:
"Because the condenser microphone must have a continuous, stable DC voltage to bias the membrane, it is common practice to supply that voltage from the sound mixing board. The voltage is applied via one of the microphone leads, typically 48 volts, and is commonly referred to as "phantom power". Since the alternative is a battery supplied bias, with the risk that a battery can go out in mid performance, the phantom power provision from mixing boards is useful."
I would guess that this is what got the subject shocked.
Mark
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:
Well, 48 volts is certainly high enough to cause a fatal shock, especially if the victim were standing waste deep in water.
If anyone in that local area hears any important related news, I hope you will pass it along.
Well, 48 volts is certainly high enough to cause a fatal shock, especially if the victim were standing waste deep in water.
If anyone in that local area hears any important related news, I hope you will pass it along.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Freak Accident:
Wow 48 volts for phantom power? All the mixers I have seen use 16 volts DC? I'm looking at a Tascam 16/32 studio mixer and it says right at the mic inputs 16 volts and there is a switch to turn it off at each XLR channel. Something new? Even the snake lights that light the controls are 16 volts they just plug into an extra XLR port on the top side and run off the phantom supply.
Wow 48 volts for phantom power? All the mixers I have seen use 16 volts DC? I'm looking at a Tascam 16/32 studio mixer and it says right at the mic inputs 16 volts and there is a switch to turn it off at each XLR channel. Something new? Even the snake lights that light the controls are 16 volts they just plug into an extra XLR port on the top side and run off the phantom supply.
Re: Freak Accident:
I don't think too many people use condenser mics.
I forget what the term is ( the memory is the second thing to go ), but I think if you use higher voltage on a condenser mic it will take louder sounds without distortion, like inside a grand piano.
I don't think it's anything new. The power supply can go between the mic and the mixer. I think some are 52 volts. I sure wouldn't get in a baptismal font with one.
I don't think too many people use condenser mics.
I forget what the term is ( the memory is the second thing to go ), but I think if you use higher voltage on a condenser mic it will take louder sounds without distortion, like inside a grand piano.
I don't think it's anything new. The power supply can go between the mic and the mixer. I think some are 52 volts. I sure wouldn't get in a baptismal font with one.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Freak Accident:
Your all missing the point.It is not about voltage.It is about current thru the body.Even a 9 volt battery could easily kill.What to do next is those of you that go to church.Put the preacher on alert and have him relay this message as far as he can to other churches.If it saves even one more life it is well worth the effort
Your all missing the point.It is not about voltage.It is about current thru the body.Even a 9 volt battery could easily kill.What to do next is those of you that go to church.Put the preacher on alert and have him relay this message as far as he can to other churches.If it saves even one more life it is well worth the effort
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