Freak Accident:

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rattus

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Your all missing the point.It is not about voltage.It is about current thru the body.Even a 9 volt battery could easily kill.What to do next is those of you that go to church.Put the preacher on alert and have him relay this message as far as he can to other churches.If it saves even one more life it is well worth the effort
That is true Jim. Designers of medical equipment have to be extremely careful because the resistivity inside the body is quite low. Dry skin presents a fairly high resisitivity, but wet skin, as we know, reduces the resistivity and greatly increases the danger.

Try http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051101/ap_on_re_us/pastor_electrocuted_5 which can be printed or emailed.

[ November 02, 2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: rattus ]
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

"phantom power"... I would guess that this is what got the subject shocked.

No, not at all. I seriously doubt that he would be using a condenser mike anyway.

The cause was improper grounding of the mike and sound system.

Hurk, do you remember the name of the singer who refused to touch a mike unless it was wrapped with about 10 rolls of tape? She (I think) got knocked on her butt once and long after demanded that even wireless mikes be wrapped.

This is unfortunately not an uncommon problem in the entertainment world for the reasons Hurk mentions.

Church systems are usually much simpler but they are many times installed and maintained by members of the church who usually have no idea what they are doing let alone codes. Every once an a while one of those people will come here looking for advice. I cringe because most times they are in over their heads and sometimes they think they are above any codes.

So really this was an accident waiting to happen. I too hope that we find out the actual cause but unfortunately I doubt that the death of this poor man will have any impact on this practice.

-Hal
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

Here are a few musicians who have been killed by either microphones or in one case a guitar.

Keith Relf:33: "Yardbirds, Renaissance" electrocuted by guitar

Les Harvey:25: "Stone The Crows" electrocuted by microphone

Alan Willsons "Canned Heat" electrocuted by microphone

John Rostill "Shadows" Electrocuted (He was in his studio but the cause (other than electrocution) wasn't determined, but he had audio cables next to him)

This problem has been around for a long time.

There has been many reports of microphone electrocutions in clubs at outdoor events and others, I remember one where a man was killed doing karaoke,
Somthing to think about also is the case of a pickup on a guitar and in some cases the strings are also connected to the audio shielding which will have the same effect.
I think the audio shielding should be isolated from the power supply grounding.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

I think what you are asking is that audio equipment be made idiot proof and I don't think that's going to happen. As long as the equipment isn't abused and the grounding left the way the manufacturers intended (per the UL listing and the NEC) there shouldn't be any problems. Dangerious situations begin when people with little knowledge (or just enough to be dangerious) get involved.

Keep in mind that the electrical systems in these venues and the way the audio equipment is wired often are the real reasons behind many of these tragedies. If there is a difference in potential between a guitar and amp powered by an on-stage circuit and the mike connected through the audio equipment powered by another circuit there is a problem with the electrical system.

-Hal
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

Hal I agree with you that in most NEC compliant electrical systems, there should be no problems, But there is one setup that will cause a problem every time and the electrical is NEC compliant,

It is when a large show is done in a building or place (like a park) where there is more than one service, And the audio equipment is split with the sound stage at the back fed from one service and the main stage is in the front fed from another service.
Since the neutral is bonded to the grounding at each of these services the common audio cable shields will also share the neutral current.

There is no reason the audio shield need to be connected to the power grounding, this was a left over from the old tube amps that used to power the main PA system. All new amps have power supply's that would isolate the audio section of the amp, and the shields connection to the chassis can be removed with out any problems. This connection is not needed and the amp will function with out it.

I think what you are asking is that audio equipment be made idiot proof
No I'm not This is something that is not very common knowledge with the people installing this equipment as we can see by the people getting hurt or killed by it, Look at the NEC for the most part it doesn't idiot proof electrical systems, It address common problems that many electricians didn't understand that was causing fires and shocks, If we didn't have a table to tell us how many amps a wire could safely handle many would be overloading them, Why did the AMA reduce the length of kitchen cords in 1969? It was because many parents didn't know about the dangers of kids grabbing the cord and pulling a hot appliance onto them. Would you call that parent an idiot? Or someone who didn't have the right knowledge?
I'll bet there are many electricians who will not know what cause the hum in a audio system, It's more of a lack of knowledge that the AMA or which ever org. covers how these amplifiers are built should make some changes to stop this un-necessary danger.

Remember when they came out with the XLR balanced audio system they removed the signal negative connection from the shields but left the shield connected to the chassis grounding. This was to extend the max length of runs and to help in reducing the hum and noise on the audio cables. Well it did help in removing some but since there was still a parallel path with the shielding it still cause the hum. I use to keep a bag of XLR isolation transformers on hand because we had that exact setup at a park here, the main stage was up front on the rear of the concession stand and where to sound men wanted to always set there sound both up there was a pedestal meter panel combo, I had told them in the beginning that they had to use these isolators between their sound booth and the main stage because of the two different services, well they didn't listen and had many problems, Now these was large venue bands, not barroom bands but like Charlie Daniels and others.
The worst was a rodie was shocked when taking apart an XLR connection that was the result of a voltage differential between the two service neutrals that was paralleled on this cables shielding. They thought I was nuts when I required the isolators, well after that the park department had us run dedicated feeders from the same service that the main stage area used and installed a 200amp 3? panel, so this wouldn't happen again.
Will it stop any problems in the future? Probably not since any mis-wired cord used by a band can create the same problem.
The only common denominator is to stop connection the audio shields to the power supply grounding and reconnect them to the input signal negative, this will isolate it from the power system keeping the shields/equipment safe to touch.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

It is when a large show is done in a building or place (like a park) where there is more than one service, And the audio equipment is split with the sound stage at the back fed from one service and the main stage is in the front fed from another service.
Since the neutral is bonded to the grounding at each of these services the common audio cable shields will also share the neutral current.


That's exactly what I said. But the solution isn't to "float" the audio gear any more than you would want to "float" the frame of a washing machine or a refrigerator. UL and the NEC require a bond to ground so that the equipment can't become energized. So if audio gear was not required to be grounded there is a good possibility that a fault somewhere could energize it anyway.

The solution is exactly what you did. But not only does everything need to be run from the same service or panel but the venue and audio equipment needs to be wired and maintained with this danger in mind by qualified people, not roadies, handymen or members of a congregation.


-Hal
 

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:

I agree that condenser mics are not common. I meant that the PA could be supplying this voltage whether the mic was using it or not.

Mark
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

I meant that the PA could be supplying this voltage whether the mic was using it or not.

Sorry Mark, but it doesn't work that way. First not all PA or sound equipment has the capability of providing phantom power. The higher end stuff would because it could be used with high quality (read$$) mics that might require phantom power. It's not likely that you would find these mics used for general sound reinforcement, the cost wouldn't make sense.

If you enabled phantom power on a mic channel to which a "regular" mic was connected you would either damage the mic, or the mic would be a dead DC short to the phantom power which is current limited. Also the days of 48 volt phantom power are long gone. Today it's around 16 volts DC.

-Hal
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

By Hal: But the solution isn't to "float" the audio gear any more than you would want to "float" the frame of a washing machine or a refrigerator
Hal I'm not talking about "floating" the EGC fed with the power supply conductors in the cord that plugs into the wall. What I'm talking about is the audio signal shield that runs between equipment. There is no reasone the manufactures need to have it bonded to the EGC, it should be kept isolated.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

What then would keep the microphones, guitar, stage pocket- whatever from becoming hot if there were a fault somewhere?

Maybe all corded mikes should be "double insulated" like power tools.

-Hal
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

What then would keep the microphones, guitar, stage pocket- whatever from becoming hot if there were a fault somewhere?
What would happen to the small wire in a XLR mic cable if it was faulted on a 20 amp circuit? we are talking about a 24 awg wire. It could cause a fire.


What would keep speaker wiring from becoming hot? they are not grounded?
What about the com links between light controllers and dimmer packs?
I don't think that this is an issue since the NEC does not require classII wiring to be grounded.
Audio signal cable would certainly not have enough voltage to require it to be grounded unless it left the building,even then it would only require a GEC.

[ November 04, 2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: Freak Accident:

What would happen to the small wire in a XLR mic cable if it was faulted on a 20 amp circuit?

I would be more concerned about the shield. Much more likely that it could become energized and it's connected to the mic shell.

Not to get completely off condeming the audio system but I recently read in another forum on this subject where these baptismals are equipped with lights, heaters and pumps.

So, there is yet another area to theorize about.

-Hal
 

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
Re: Freak Accident:

Today, I read an e-mail from Mike Holt about a preacher who was electrcuted by a mic., while standing in the bapismal font. Is this the same story? I deleted the message earlier today. You could probably find it in his archives. There is an excellent link in the e-mail about solving hum problems. In the eighties, I did lots of audio work and was usually guilty of lifting one side of the shield.
 
Re: Freak Accident:

Regarding the P.A. microphone, almost all modern microphones use field effect transistors to boost microvolt-level signals into volt-level alternating currents suitable for transmission over 600 ohm impedance 3-wire 'XLR' standard circuits. These transistors typically are biased at 4-18 volts, not to be confused with the 75-volt standard for P.A. speaker matching using variable-wattage transformers at each speaker. The ground lead of an 'XLR' microphone is supposed to the the cable's overall shield, and carefully connected to the metal body of the microphone. The 'charged tub' should be looked at by NEC authorities, because you can hardly eliminate all possible grounds ( like nearby water pipes, which can also get 'charged' by unusual circumstances like lightning ). 48 volts BTW is the usual talk ( closed, off hook ) source for wired telephones.
 

rattus

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

Last I heard--on this forum I believe--is that the baptismal pool utilized a homemade heater with no grounding of the heating element itself. A fault to the outer shell of this element would energize the water in this Fiberglas pool. An EGC was most likely connected to the microphone stand, and this EGC completed the path to ground.

[ December 18, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: rattus ]
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Freak Accident:

Originally posted by rattus: Last I heard--on this forum I believe--is that the baptismal pool utilized a homemade heater with no grounding of the heating element itself.
I'm not sure, but I think that was a separate incident. There were two such tragedies over the past month or two. One involved a mike and the other involved a heater.
 

rattus

Senior Member
Re: Freak Accident:

Charlie B.,

I think this is the same incident. The heating element was defective and the mike completed the return path. Certainly is plausible.
 
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