fuel island wiring question.

[Coastalguy1]

The attached photo is of a (3) pump fuel dispenser island. The disconnect is fed from an 80amp 2pole 208v circuit breaker from a distribution panel. Note how the neutral is fused and then tied to the neutral/ground bar in the subpanel. I have never seen this. Is it NEC acceptable??? I typically see some switched neutral breakers when dealing with fuel islands.
thanks!

 

[augie47]

Loos to be a vilolation of 240.22, 514.11, and 250.24(A)(5) AS A START

 

[iceworm]

... The attached photo is of a (3) pump fuel dispenser island. The disconnect is fed from an 80amp 2pole 208v circuit breaker from a distribution panel. Note how the neutral is fused and then tied to the neutral/ground bar in the subpanel. I have never seen this. Is it NEC acceptable??? I typically see some switched neutral breakers when dealing with fuel islands. ,,,

Yes, switched neutral CB are common. (514.11)
If I had to guess, the disconnect was meant to be the 514.11 disconnect. It would work for that, except the neutral slot has to be slugged.

I've got a job comming up - could be a good one. I'll be gone for a while.

Prepare to ride the magnetic wave come the 21th. And if that doesn't happen: Everybody have a good Christmas.

ice

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes 514.11 allows a switched neutral but not thru a fuse. The circuit must disconnect or fault with all conductors being disconnected.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes, I agree once the main disconnect is passed the neutrals and grounds must be isolated. I see art 225 part II involved in this install. That means ground rods are required at the main disconnect. It is hard to tell what feeds what. I assume the fuse panel is last in line since it has the seal off.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yes 514.11 allows a switched neutral but not thru a fuse. The circuit must disconnect or fault with all conductors being disconnected.

I don't see any specific wording that requires a fault to cause all of the conductors, including the grounded conductor, to be disconnected by the action of the OCPD. They may be trying to tell us that when they tell us we can't use single pole breakers with handle ties as the means of disconnect, but that is not really telling us that the action of the OCPD must open the grounded and ungrounded conductors.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see any specific wording that requires a fault to cause all of the conductors, including the grounded conductor, to be disconnected by the action of the OCPD. They may be trying to tell us that when they tell us we can't use single pole breakers with handle ties as the means of disconnect, but that is not really telling us that the action of the OCPD must open the grounded and ungrounded conductors.

No it doesn't say that directly but that is the reason why a neutral must be disconnected simultaneously and as you stated no sp. with ties. I really don't see my statement as misleading or inappropriate.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

No it doesn't say that directly but that is the reason why a neutral must be disconnected simultaneously and as you stated no sp. with ties. I really don't see my statement as misleading or inappropriate.

I only see a code requirement that the means of disconnect disconnects both the grounded and ungrounded conductors. I don't see anything that tells me that the OCPD has to do the same.

 

[Smart $]

I only see a code requirement that the means of disconnect disconnects both the grounded and ungrounded conductors. I don't see anything that tells me that the OCPD has to do the same.

This point regarding 514.11 is moot.

240.22 Grounded Conductor. No overcurrent device shall
be connected in series with any conductor that is intentionally
grounded, unless one of the following two conditions is met:
(1) The overcurrent device opens all conductors of the circuit,
including the grounded conductor, and is designed
so that no pole can operate independently.
(2) Where required by 430.36 or 430.37 for motor overload
protection.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

This point regarding 514.11 is moot.

The section you cited has nothing to do with the discussion I am having with Dennis.
Our discussion really boils down to: "can a fusible disconnect with a dummy fuse for the grounded conductor be used as the overcurrent protection and disconnect for a gas pump?".

I say the code does not prohibit this and Dennis says you can only use a breaker that switches the grounded conductor as the overcurrent protection for a gas pump.

 

[Smart $]

The section you cited has nothing to do with the discussion I am having with Dennis.
Our discussion really boils down to: "can a fusible disconnect with a dummy fuse for the grounded conductor be used as the overcurrent protection and disconnect for a gas pump?".

I say the code does not prohibit this and Dennis says you can only use a breaker that switches the grounded conductor as the overcurrent protection for a gas pump.

Again, I see it as moot. 514.11 regards disconnect only. OCP is covered by 240.22. If you want to throw both issues together, simply comply with both requirements.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Basically I think that Don is saying the neutral does not have to be fused but the circuit must have a dp or 3 pole switch that disconnects the neutral. I always assumed they wanted OCPD on the neutral. I guess it is a safety device to switch the neutral when working on the pumps.

 

[Smart $]

Basically I think that Don is saying the neutral does not have to be fused but the circuit must have a dp or 3 pole switch that disconnects the neutral. I always assumed they wanted OCPD on the neutral. I guess it is a safety device to switch the neutral when working on the pumps.

FWIW, I completely understand what both of you are saying.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Basically I think that Don is saying the neutral does not have to be fused but the circuit must have a dp or 3 pole switch that disconnects the neutral. I always assumed they wanted OCPD on the neutral. I guess it is a safety device to switch the neutral when working on the pumps.

I don't think that the breakers that open the grounded conductor have any type of current sensing for the grounded conductor. It just switches the grounded conductor when the breaker trips or when you turn the breaker off.
Maybe I am missing what you were saying. I think you are saying that the only permitted type of overcurrent protection for a gas pump is a breaker that switches the grounded conductor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't think that the breakers that open the grounded conductor have any type of current sensing for the grounded conductor. It just switches the grounded conductor when the breaker trips or when you turn the breaker off.
Maybe I am missing what you were saying. I think you are saying that the only permitted type of overcurrent protection for a gas pump is a breaker that switches the grounded conductor.

No I am not saying that at all. I did think there was ocp in the breaker but that was an assumption. I am saying that a standard knife switch could be the disconnect for the pump and ten a standard breaker or fuses could be employed that did not switch the neutral. I think I was agreeing with you.

 

[texie]

No I am not saying that at all. I did think there was ocp in the breaker but that was an assumption. I am saying that a standard knife switch could be the disconnect for the pump and ten a standard breaker or fuses could be employed that did not switch the neutral. I think I was agreeing with you.

I don't think the intent of 514.11(A) would allow switching the neutral ahead of a whole panel of non switched neutral breakers to a bank of dispensers, as it says to "each circuit". I do think a non switched neutral breaker is OK if you install a switch, that switches all of the conductors, ahead of the dispenser, but after the branch breaker feeding the dispenser.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I do think a non switched neutral breaker is OK if you install a switch, that switches all of the conductors, ahead of the dispenser, but after the branch breaker feeding the dispenser.

That is what I was saying or at least trying to say.

 

[texie]

That is what I was saying or at least trying to say.

I think we're on the same page. But I think we lost sight of the OP photo. The fused neutral in the disconnect is a flaming violation and we also don't know if the neutral bar in the sub panel (on the right in the photo) is bonded, which would be another big violation.

 

[Coastalguy1]

here is another picture of the panel. I see a bonding strap just left of the neutral wire but it doesn't look to be connected to anything. This installation lucky is getting removed and fuel island relocated. I will correct the violations. I was just questioning the fused neutral because I had never seen this before. Still wondering how an inspector signed off on it though!! Thank you for all the replies!