Fuse or Breaker

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davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
Especially if the statement that 'fuses are better' comes from a fuse manufacturer engineer
I'm trying to find within this post my quote of "Fuses are Better" and I can't find it. I did say that fuses offer many advantages and still stand by that. Fuses selectively coordinate easier and "better" and provide "better" Arc Flash Protection, when the fuse enters into it's current limiting region.

So if any statement came from a Contractor or Maintenance person from Massachusetts, who's Commercial & State contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder, should we also question that and look for any bias? Why do we have to stoop to this level?
Just my $.02
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
While we are talking about fuses v breakers, I recall reading somewhere is the past that in gerneral fuses have a higher voltage drop accross them than do breakers resulting in higher I^2R losses. Granted the numbers are very small, but if the statement is true in a facility with thousands of OCPDs, these losses cold add up to significant extra energy costs. Does anyone know if the statement that I think I remember reading is factual?
Don
 

ron

Senior Member
Don,
I'd been looking for impedance information regarding fuses vs breakers for awhile with no avail. Sometimes when a short circuit calculation is close, I'd like to be able to add other impedances not normally included so as to reduce the calculated value. "Other" impedances such as fuse/breaker, mechanical terminations, compression terminations, etc.
 

davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
I recall reading somewhere is the past that in gerneral fuses have a higher voltage drop accross them than do breakers resulting in higher I^2R losses.
Fuses are manufactured and tested before they ship. They have to fall within cretain resistance values. Here are some examples.
Class J -100 .000732 to .0008440 ohms
Class J-200 .000356 to .0004100 ohms
RK-1 250volt -100amp .0007870 to .0008700 ohms
RK-1 250 volt 200amp .0003530 to .0003850 ohms
RK-5 600volt 100amp .0007900 to ..0008800 ohms
RK-5 600 volt 200amp .0003500 to .0003870 ohms
Just my $.02
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
davidr43229 said:
I'm trying to find within this post my quote of "Fuses are Better" and I can't find it.

Actually I was talking about MO_EE and I am assuming he works for a fuse manufacturer do to his profile and his posts.

So if any statement came from a Contractor or Maintenance person from Massachusetts, who's Commercial & State contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder, should we also question that and look for any bias?

Not exactly following you there but yes I have bias regarding questions about Massachusetts.

Why do we have to stoop to this level?

It's not 'stooping' to be interested in where someones opinions might have been formulated.

I am in no way saying anything you or MO_EE has said is wrong. Who would know fuses better than those that work with them all the time?

However if you do not think it's pertinent that a person pushing fuses also happens to work for a fuse manufacturer IMO you are not really thinking about it.


Just my $0.02
 
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George Stolz

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Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Service Manager
davidr43229 said:
Why do we have to stoop to this level?
David, two points:

1. I greatly value your posts, you frequently answer questions around your field promptly and accurately (as far as I can tell ;) ).

2. There is always a possibility of brainwashing in any industry. For example, my wife's into pets. She was a dog groomer in a vet clinic. Before that, she worked at a local pet food store.

When she worked at the pet food store, she learned that Science Diet provides materials and training to vet schools, that favor Science Diet's methods for how best to feed a dog. With this training, they see differences in other foods and regard them as inferior. Most vets recommend Science Diet, due to their training. It's not that the vet is trying to pull a fast one on the consumer, they geniunely believe Science Diet is the most completely researched and developed dog food, despite being made primarily of corn. :)

Mention a "raw diet" around a vet just for fun, watch the fur fly. :D

Anyway, point of the story: no offense to you, but your posts will be scrutinized, for balance. It's always good policy to question the source. :cool:
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Based on all of misinformation provided by the AFCI manufacturers, I no longer believe any information provided by an manufacturer or someone who represents one unless I can verify it from an independent source.
Don
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
don_resqcapt19 said:
Based on all of misinformation provided by the AFCI manufacturers, I no longer believe any information provided by an manufacturer or someone who represents one unless I can verify it from an independent source.
Don

But Don, do you know any independent sources? I tend to try and let others try the new stuff first, cause you will usually hear complaints when their claims are a bit misleading.:smile:
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
The only independent sources, which may be a stretch, are insurance companies. The only financial interest that they would have is to reduce insurance losses. One would like to think that there should be enough data acquired by then to date to raise an eyebrow to the AFCI if it was reducing claims as a result of electrical fires.
You may think that the would start to subsidize their cost for retrofitting older homes if they found its in their best interest. It hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.
Also, if the voltage drop was infact greater across a fuse then the heating watts would be greater than a breaker.
 

davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
George,
Thank you for your two points of value. I would like to think I try for balance, when approaching a reply to a post due to various points of view, but every once in awhile a particuliar subject or reply stirs passion. The Subject of Fuses VS Breakers does that.
In as far as your analogy,corn/per food.... Isn't it odd that corn a product meant for food is becomming a source to run our cars (E85). I appreciate your thoughts & comments. (Balance "Grasshooper")
Just my $.02
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
davidr43229 said:
In as far as your analogy,corn/per food.... Isn't it odd that corn a product meant for food is becomming a source to run our cars (E85). I appreciate your thoughts & comments.
Only in another thread, don't need to take this one off topic. ;)

(Actually, come to think of it, I believe this was discussed not too long back, oddly enough.)
 

megloff11x

Senior Member
The propaganda from the fuse makers notes that if they don't blow, they cost less than breakers over time, and this is true.

In your house, you constantly have hairdryers, microwaves, TVs, and other appliances on at the same time. I rented one place that had the kitchen, dining room, and living room on the same 15A breaker. The Saturday cardiac power breakfast involved timing of the microwave, toaster, coffee maker, waffle maker, and then the TV could come on while we ate.

In an industrial setting, tripping the circuit is less likely because (hopefully) it was wired by a professional who knew what he was doing.

Fuse characteristics are better than breakers. They have a much higher interrupt rating. A Class J or RK will open 200000 Amps. The typical breaker is lucky if it can open 5000 Amps.

I have a hybrid rule. I prefer breakers on smaller "science experiments" in industrial settings, and in the home. Here they are likely to trip often and we don't want them finding and installing a new fuse even if they do find the right size.

On big plant type things, the fuse rules. A 200A breaker can run well over a grand if not two. A good set of fuses and holder may set you back $500. I would also prefer that it comes as close as possible to being able to open a direct lightning strike and limit arc flash.

The RK and J type fuses usually guarantee "no-damage" which means when properly sized for the application, they will open before a non-POS component gets cooked.

Each has its role. Consider the application and likely situations that will arise.


Matt
 

WDeanN

Member
I've got to come down on the side of breakers for arc flash protection.

Yeah, fuses will trip faster in the current limiting range, but trying to coordinate a fuse with a transformer or motor, and get it to operate in the current limiting range for arcing currents is next to impossible. Being able to easily adjust instantaneous settings on breakers can make all the difference in the world. If you have to perform an arc flash analysis on an existing facility and reduce energy levels, you'd better hope they have adjustable breakers installed. Fuses can be difficult to downsize once fuseholders are installed. You also cannot attach auxillary trip devices to fuses.

megloff11x said:
Fuse characteristics are better than breakers. They have a much higher interrupt rating. A Class J or RK will open 200000 Amps. The typical breaker is lucky if it can open 5000 Amps.

If you?re looking at control applications, this may be the case. If you?re doing power applications, it?s easy to find a 480V breaker that will interrupt 65kA. The minimum standard now is about 25kA. 100kA is not hard to find, and I suspect this will keep rising.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
megloff11x said:
Fuse characteristics are better than breakers. They have a much higher interrupt rating. A Class J or RK will open 200000 Amps. The typical breaker is lucky if it can open 5000 Amps.

Yes, a fuse can interrupt a circuit the has 200000A available but that is not the same as opening 200000A. The fuse links begin to melt introducing impedance into the arc path (often melted sand but sometimes simply air) stopping the current flow well below 200000A, or else they would not be "current limiting".

The RK and J type fuses usually guarantee "no-damage" which means when properly sized for the application, they will open before a non-POS component gets cooked.

Fuses only "guarantee" no-damage protection if the actual (not available)current is suffcient to cause them to enter their current limiting region.

Each has its role. Consider the application and likely situations that will arise.

Amen to that. There is no single answer for all situations.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
You also cannot attach auxiliary trip devices to fuses.


While not all that common on smaller fused safety switches, auxiliary shunt trip coils are available for some Fused Safety Switches in the lower amperages. Above 600 amps (I think, maybe 800) bolted pressure switches, this is a common option. Bolted pressure switches up to 6000 amp with shunt trips are a common device, with multiple trip options, GFP, Blown Fuse, UV, ECT.
 
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360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
We install breakers only (well, the occasional fuseholder for 5a circuits). Most of the jobs we do do not need to out long enough to find a replacement fuse in the middle of the night or on a weekend. Maintenence "crews" for these customers just are not going to keep those fuses handy.
 
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