- Location
- Massachusetts
I am told the center pole is an EGC. Anyone have a code section to cite here?
Fused EGC
- Thread starter iwire
- Start date
- Status
I am told the center pole is an EGC. Anyone have a code section to cite here?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
250.4 (A)(5) ??
250.4 (A)(5) ??
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
But does 250.124 (B) allow this?
Edit: I don't think so because this is more than just a switch, it's an OCPD.
[ October 12, 2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
But does 250.124 (B) allow this?
Edit: I don't think so because this is more than just a switch, it's an OCPD.
[ October 12, 2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Fused EGC
By the way I am aware of the missing connector and the lack of enclosure grounding.
That would allow the switch not the fuse.Originally posted by peter d:
But does 250.124 (B) allow this?
Edit: I don't think so because this is more than just a switch, it's an OCPD.
By the way I am aware of the missing connector and the lack of enclosure grounding.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
Is this a trick question Bob. I'm having a hard time finding a reference. So far all I can come up with is 250.4(A)(5) because this is not a "permanent, low impedance circuit."
[ October 12, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
Is this a trick question Bob. I'm having a hard time finding a reference. So far all I can come up with is 250.4(A)(5) because this is not a "permanent, low impedance circuit."
[ October 12, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Fused EGC
I think it more likely that the center pole is the neutral, and that the conduit is serving as the EGC.
By the way, is this a service connection point or a local disconnect for some load?
Did that same person ask you to verify your banking information, and promise you a share in a $44 million overseas deposit they are trying to make?
I think it more likely that the center pole is the neutral, and that the conduit is serving as the EGC.
By the way, is this a service connection point or a local disconnect for some load?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
It looks like an AC disconnect.
It looks like an AC disconnect.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Fused EGC
The conduit you see at the bottom looks suspiciously to me like a plastic connector.
I do not believe there is any grounding of this enclosure. I was also told this disconnect is at a homes Air Conditioner. I have never seen a neutral used at a 240 AC unit. Of course it is possible but I do believe that is the EGC.
However if it is a neutral it is a clear violation of 240.22.
Lets say it is the EGC, help me find a code section that makes this 'wrong'.
Was it wrong to give out all my info to the guy from the county I have never heard of?
[ October 12, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Well there is no conduit coming from the source, this disconnect is fed from the rear with SE cable.
The conduit you see at the bottom looks suspiciously to me like a plastic connector.
I do not believe there is any grounding of this enclosure. I was also told this disconnect is at a homes Air Conditioner. I have never seen a neutral used at a 240 AC unit. Of course it is possible but I do believe that is the EGC.
However if it is a neutral it is a clear violation of 240.22.
Lets say it is the EGC, help me find a code section that makes this 'wrong'.
Was it wrong to give out all my info to the guy from the county I have never heard of?
[ October 12, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Fused EGC
Pete that is better than I have come up with so far.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Fused EGC
How about 240.22
The EGC is intentionally grounded eventually at it's s line side. "...any conductor that is intentionally grounded..."
By the def. in Art 100 the EGC connects stuff to the grounding electode.
It's a little bit of a stretch.
As far as 250.124 goes, it's interesting cutout is not defined in part one of Art 100. A cutout is used with a fuse in high voltage and is defined in part 2. The index sends you places for cutout bases and thermal cutout, but there is nothing there (when you flip to the section) about cutout anything.
I would guess that cutouts were more common for low voltage work in earlier times.
It looks like this is SE cable to supply a heat pump
How about 240.22
The EGC is intentionally grounded eventually at it's s line side. "...any conductor that is intentionally grounded..."
By the def. in Art 100 the EGC connects stuff to the grounding electode.
It's a little bit of a stretch.
As far as 250.124 goes, it's interesting cutout is not defined in part one of Art 100. A cutout is used with a fuse in high voltage and is defined in part 2. The index sends you places for cutout bases and thermal cutout, but there is nothing there (when you flip to the section) about cutout anything.
I would guess that cutouts were more common for low voltage work in earlier times.
It looks like this is SE cable to supply a heat pump
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Fused EGC
Thanks Larry I tried hard to make 240.22 work here for the same reason you bring up.
But like you I went to 100 and feel it is a stretch especially given that the name of section 240.22 is grounded conductor.
Thanks Larry I tried hard to make 240.22 work here for the same reason you bring up.
But like you I went to 100 and feel it is a stretch especially given that the name of section 240.22 is grounded conductor.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
I searched the EGC sections too and came up blank.
Well, I tried some more and that's still the best I can come up with.
I searched the EGC sections too and came up blank.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Fused EGC
Your Welcome Bob
I seem to recall a post about the same thing sometime back, maybe on ECN. About an A/C guy who hooked up the EGC to one of the fuses. Something about the fusible switch was under the porch. I don't remember if a section was ever given.
Just when you think the code covers everything about basic wiring........
Your Welcome Bob
I seem to recall a post about the same thing sometime back, maybe on ECN. About an A/C guy who hooked up the EGC to one of the fuses. Something about the fusible switch was under the porch. I don't remember if a section was ever given.
Just when you think the code covers everything about basic wiring........
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Fused EGC
You know, sometimes things appear so obvious that you don't think to tell someone to not do it. Like you don't tell someone to not get out of the car until it stops, they just know you should not do it.
I guess the code writers must figure that everyone would know it is not a good idea to fuse an equipment ground.
(edited to correct a "no" to "know")
[ October 12, 2005, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: hardworkingstiff ]
You know, sometimes things appear so obvious that you don't think to tell someone to not do it. Like you don't tell someone to not get out of the car until it stops, they just know you should not do it.
I guess the code writers must figure that everyone would know it is not a good idea to fuse an equipment ground.
(edited to correct a "no" to "know")
[ October 12, 2005, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: hardworkingstiff ]
Re: Fused EGC
Since so many of our do-it-yourselfers dont know the differance between a grounding and a grounded conductor and do not realize that a 220V load doesn't require a neutral, I'm guessing this old boy thought he was OK! (I'm handecapped right now with only a '99 code in front of me) But how about 430.84 and 430.85 for him to think he is in compliance?
430-84. Need Not Open All Conductors
The controller shall not be required to open all conductors to the motor.
Exception: Where the controller serves also as a disconnecting means, it shall open all ungrounded conductors to the motor as provided in Section 430-111.
430-85. In Grounded Conductors
One pole of the controller shall be permitted to be placed in a permanently grounded conductor, provided the controller is designed so that the pole in the grounded conductor cannot be opened without simultaneously opening all conductors of the circuit.
Since so many of our do-it-yourselfers dont know the differance between a grounding and a grounded conductor and do not realize that a 220V load doesn't require a neutral, I'm guessing this old boy thought he was OK! (I'm handecapped right now with only a '99 code in front of me) But how about 430.84 and 430.85 for him to think he is in compliance?
430-84. Need Not Open All Conductors
The controller shall not be required to open all conductors to the motor.
Exception: Where the controller serves also as a disconnecting means, it shall open all ungrounded conductors to the motor as provided in Section 430-111.
430-85. In Grounded Conductors
One pole of the controller shall be permitted to be placed in a permanently grounded conductor, provided the controller is designed so that the pole in the grounded conductor cannot be opened without simultaneously opening all conductors of the circuit.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Fused EGC
Wes, I don't understand how those code sections are remotely applicable. First, this is for an AC unit, not a motor, second, this is a disconnect, not a controller.
Wes, I don't understand how those code sections are remotely applicable.
First, this is for an AC unit, not a motor, second, this is a disconnect, not a controller.Re: Fused EGC
How about this?
250.2
250.4 (A) (3), (4), & (5)
240.2 Current Limiting Overcurrent Protective Device
My thoughts are that the overcurrent device reduces the effectivness and permanence of the
ground fault current path and would be a code violation.
Also,
In the installation pictured, the fuse is part of the grounding path.
250.134 specifies grounding methods.
(A) equipment grounding conductors permitted by 250.118
(B) equipment grounding conductor in same raceway,...
A fuse does not meet either of these specifications
[ October 12, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
How about this?
250.2
250.4 (A) (3), (4), & (5)
240.2 Current Limiting Overcurrent Protective Device
My thoughts are that the overcurrent device reduces the effectivness and permanence of the
ground fault current path and would be a code violation.
Also,
In the installation pictured, the fuse is part of the grounding path.
250.134 specifies grounding methods.
(A) equipment grounding conductors permitted by 250.118
(B) equipment grounding conductor in same raceway,...
A fuse does not meet either of these specifications
[ October 12, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: geezer ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Fused EGC
Bob, I have spent much time researching the correct code section to address this conductor if it is classified as the Equipment Grounding Conductor.
It is my belief that this would have to be the equipment grounding conductor or it would be in violation of 250.142 (B).
This would lead me to 250.4 (A)(5),
Second this path is required to,?It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it.? Should the fuse in series with the equipment grounding conductor be the one to blow first then the ground-fault path would be opened thus losing the ground-fault path.
I have done a search on the CD using every phrase I could think of and cannot find words that resemble those found in 240.22 that would address the equipment grounding conductor.
Bob, I have spent much time researching the correct code section to address this conductor if it is classified as the Equipment Grounding Conductor.
It is my belief that this would have to be the equipment grounding conductor or it would be in violation of 250.142 (B).
This would lead me to 250.4 (A)(5),
First this section requires that, ?shall be installed in a manner that creates a permanent, low-impedance circuit .? The fuse would be anything but ?permanent.?
Second this path is required to,?It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it.? Should the fuse in series with the equipment grounding conductor be the one to blow first then the ground-fault path would be opened thus losing the ground-fault path.
I have done a search on the CD using every phrase I could think of and cannot find words that resemble those found in 240.22 that would address the equipment grounding conductor.
- Status