Garage 20 amp circuit

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sblk55 said:
Hi guys, I am in house industrial and have learned to only install 20 amp receptacles. The only houses I work on are mine and my daughters and still only use 20 amp outlets. Is there really that much of a cost savings with 15 as opposed to 20 amp?

Steve
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Waste of money and look silly/odd in residential settings IMO.

15A duplex receptacles are fine on 20A circuits, the contacts inside are the same.

Very few Homeowners, myself included, actually own anything with a 20A plug.

I sometimes see 20A recs in garages or such, but inside-never.

Only exception has been single 20A recs on an individual circuit dedicated to a piece of equipment.
 
15 amp receptacles are generally cheaper. As Derek stated there is no real reason to use a 20 amp duplex in a dwelling.
 
Well you talk of looks but that is what I am use to so it looks fine to me. But my main question is, when doing a new house how much do you realy save running 14 awg as opposed to 12?

Steve
 
sblk55 said:
Well you talk of looks but that is what I am use to so it looks fine to me. But my main question is, when doing a new house how much do you realy save running 14 awg as opposed to 12?

Steve
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You can run #12 conductors and use 20 amp OCPDs but you still only need to install 15 amp duplex receptacles.
 
Yes I know you can run 12 or 10 or whatever, but all the res. guy are always saying "waist of money". Of course at work we run EMT and pull 12 THHN and I have no idea of price. So when doing a new house what is the savings?

Steve
 
I just did two new houses and I put all the lights on 15A circuits along with all the bedrooms. I saved around $120 on the wire on each house, so $240. The best thing is allowing more box fill without worrying about going over.
Best part....and saved a ton of knuckle scraping making up the boxes!:)
 
jumper said:
Very few Homeowners, myself included, actually own anything with a 20A plug.

I sometimes see 20A recs in garages or such, but inside-never.
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I can count on one hand the number of times I've spied a 5-20r in a house, and they all (save for a couple of bath gfcis that were 20s) had evidence of being stuffed in by DIY's.

sblk55 said:
Well you talk of looks but that is what I am use to so it looks fine to me. But my main question is, when doing a new house how much do you realy save running 14 awg as opposed to 12?
Steve
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TBH, not that much per job, but it adds up- and just try going all 12 nm in a few places w/lots of sw'g/lighting/fans....then get back to us when you can type again.:D

Outside of some special circumstance, there really is no need for putting 20a recs in a dwelling, as there is virtually nothing in anybody's house that has a 20a cord cap- If your worried about any device failure issues and to put your mind at ease, AFAIK all 15a duplexes are rated for 20a pass thru.
 
sblk55 said:
Yes I know you can run 12 or 10 or whatever, but all the res. guy are always saying "waist of money". Of course at work we run EMT and pull 12 THHN and I have no idea of price. So when doing a new house what is the savings?

Steve
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It's a waste of money if you're wiring to the bare minimum and trying to save every nickle. As Bill stated he saved $120 on an entire house using #14 for lighting. We can debate whether or not that was worth the savings.

For me in my own house every circuit is #12 and 20 amp circuits. Yes box fill needs to be looked at closely with #12 conductors but where I work #12 is the minimum size conductor so I have no problem shaping it in.
 
user 100 said:
I can count on one hand the number of times I've spied a 5-20r in a house, and they all (save for a couple of bath gfcis that were 20s) had evidence of being stuffed in by DIY's
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Pretty much the same, prolly DIY or HO somehow convinced himself that sparky just had to install 20A recs in shop or garage “just in case”.

For appliances, one was a monster micro, one was a sub zero Viking freezer, and somehow IIRC some mechanical pump or similar.
 
infinity said:
For me in my own house every circuit is #12 and 20 amp circuits. Yes box fill needs to be looked at closely with #12 conductors but where I work #12 is the minimum size conductor so I have no problem shaping it in.
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I am also more used to 12 and 20A circuits, it is the look of 20A recs in resi that I find ugly.

It makes the recs stand out IMO.
 
With the info given in post #1 and the code section cited in post #5, I believe the install is compliant. The code basically says you need a minimum of 1 20A circuit (that could use 15A receptacles) for garage receptacles (but not ALL of them). A second circuit is above/exceeding code, and tho it's a 15A, and has the garage door opener on it, it's OK.

One question: you using GFCI breakers, or a readily accessible GFCI receptacle down low on the wall? GFCI receptacles on the ceiling arent readily accessible are they?
 
sblk55 said:
Well you talk of looks but that is what I am use to so it looks fine to me. But my main question is, when doing a new house how much do you realy save running 14 awg as opposed to 12?

Steve
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Depends on circumstances, if you are trying to be lowest bidder - this isn't the only place you try to cut spending. If you are wiring for what the owner will want/like, you don't necessarily design it as skimpy as possible, but will come with a higher cost.

I think some of the guys that do large tracts of houses have every screw, staple and wire nut accounted for in their estimating process:happyyes:

user 100 said:
I can count on one hand the number of times I've spied a 5-20r in a house, and they all (save for a couple of bath gfcis that were 20s) had evidence of being stuffed in by DIY's.


TBH, not that much per job, but it adds up- and just try going all 12 nm in a few places w/lots of sw'g/lighting/fans....then get back to us when you can type again.:D

Outside of some special circumstance, there really is no need for putting 20a recs in a dwelling, as there is virtually nothing in anybody's house that has a 20a cord cap- If your worried about any device failure issues and to put your mind at ease, AFAIK all 15a duplexes are rated for 20a pass thru.
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I'd say most the 5-20's I ever saw in a dwelling were also installed by the HO, or they buy a bunch of material and want you to install it including the 5-20's. (that was before TR receptacles come into play, now you may have to tell them you can't use what they got)
 
JFletcher said:
With the info given in post #1 and the code section cited in post #5, I believe the install is compliant. The code basically says you need a minimum of 1 20A circuit (that could use 15A receptacles) for garage receptacles (but not ALL of them). A second circuit is above/exceeding code, and tho it's a 15A, and has the garage door opener on it, it's OK.
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As I read this part of the NEC, what stands out is that the garage 120 V 20 A circuit can only supply receptacle outlets. That means that any lighting MUST be on a different circuit, and, therefore, that the rock minimum wiring for a single vehicle garage, attached or detached, must include two different circuits. At minimum, the garage circuit that includes the garage lighting may be part of a General Lighting branch circuit covering other areas than just the garage.

JFletcher said:
One question: you using GFCI breakers, or a readily accessible GFCI receptacle down low on the wall? GFCI receptacles on the ceiling arent readily accessible are they?
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In the areas I work, the AHJs are of the opinion that a garage ceiling mounted GFCI receptacle (requiring a step ladder to reach) is NOT readily accessible.
 
100% agree with little bill. The extra headache and struggle of wiring boxes with 12 ga for dimmer/three-way lighting is well worth saving money on wiring them 14 ga :D
 
TWO IDEAS IN THIS THREAD, LOL.

1.- GARAGE RECEPS
I see it that if you plunk a receptacle under the panel on its own 20Amp circuit, you have met the garage requirement and are free to wire the door and 20 more receptacles on #14 if you so chose.


2.- #12 Vs #14 NM-B
I use #14 for everything general lighting. Only use #12 for the small appliance, micro, dish, and ect circuits. For reasons of box fill, ease of making boxes and cost as others have stated.
However, I tend to run a few more circuits (and you would typically be required to based on the current difference and minimum requirements for general lighting) so the extra savings of wire cost are somewhat negated by the extra AFCI breakers.

With the cost the same, I feel the more circuits approach trumps any possable benefit of the other guy using #12 with fewer home runs in the residential setting so I feel it's a better install. The fact that it is also easier to install is just icing on the cake.
 
florida-sparkey said:
TWO IDEAS IN THIS THREAD, LOL.

1.- GARAGE RECEPS
I see it that if you plunk a receptacle under the panel on its own 20Amp circuit, you have met the garage requirement and are free to wire the door and 20 more receptacles on #14 if you so chose.
Click to expand...

That seems to be the concensus so far, but if so, it seems to be a flawed loophole in the code if the idea is to require garage receptacles to be on a 20 amp circuit.

Personally, I don't see it that way and I don't wire it that way, but it seems code compliant.
 
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