gas bonding

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Gregg Harris said:
Rick there is no problem with the picture, it is showing an hybrid gas line connection between schedole 40 black pipe and a CSST fitting and a clamp designed specifically for atachment to the nut on the CSST with a UL label and listing of 467.
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I could be wrong. I have never seen a clamp designed specifically for the attachment to a CSST nut. I have only seen EGC pipe clamps used for this purpose. If you have any information or a web site that describes these I would be greatful.
 
augie47 said:
Problem may be the International Gas Code:

7.13.2 CSST. CSST gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service
grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building.
The bonding jumper shall not be smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent.
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Problem is the gas codes and or product information/instructions.

I get tired of gas man wanting me to bond his product, when NEC says nothing about it. If gas man wants to install CSST then he needs to learn how to do it - including any grounding requirements. My NEC requirement has normally been met with the equipment grounding conductor run to any appliances that also connect to the gas.

Although CSST instructions may not say so - we now have to provide a device for intersystem bonding - I assume partly to give others an easy place to bond their system, and to keep them out of the service equipment - why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel.
 
kwired said:
Problem is the gas codes and or product information/instructions.

I get tired of gas man wanting me to bond his product, when NEC says nothing about it. If gas man wants to install CSST then he needs to learn how to do it - including any grounding requirements. My NEC requirement has normally been met with the equipment grounding conductor run to any appliances that also connect to the gas.

Although CSST instructions may not say so - we now have to provide a device for intersystem bonding - I assume partly to give others an easy place to bond their system, and to keep them out of the service equipment - why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel.
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why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel.



"why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel. "

It can be atached at the Intersystem bus, the grounding electode, the grounding electrode conductor, or the panel provided it is all at least # 6 AWG copper or equivelent.
 
Gregg Harris said:
why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel.



"why can't the bond for CSST be run to the intersystem bond device also - then gas man is never in the electric panel. "

It can be atached at the Intersystem bus, the grounding electode, the grounding electrode conductor, or the panel provided it is all at least # 6 AWG copper or equivelent.
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I don't know - I am not a CSST expert, and the NEC does not cover CSST. That is my whole point. I get tired of gas men telling me I have to run a bond to their piping, and none of them ever have same requirements as to what they want done either. My opinion is it is their piping, I have met NEC requirements in most cases by having an equipment ground run to the gas appliance(s). If they want to install an inferior piping system that needs additional grounding methods then they better learn how to install their piping system to its specifications. In more recent code I have been required to install this intersystem bonding device, and as far as I am concerned they have one of those other systems that this is intended for - and it keeps them out of the electrical panels.
 
The gas pipe in my situation is the old hard black rigid pipe. They request that I bond / ground using a #6 wire. In my case, I just ran a continuous #6 solid bare from service panel to: gas pipe, existing ground rod, to copper water pipe (it ran from water meter to house), to new ground rod (over 6 feet away). Should cover everything!
 
JDB3 said:
The gas pipe in my situation is the old hard black rigid pipe. They request that I bond / ground using a #6 wire. In my case, I just ran a continuous #6 solid bare from service panel to: gas pipe, existing ground rod, to copper water pipe (it ran from water meter to house), to new ground rod (over 6 feet away). Should cover everything!
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That will work.
 
JDB3 said:
The gas pipe in my situation is the old hard black rigid pipe. They request that I bond / ground using a #6 wire. In my case, I just ran a continuous #6 solid bare from service panel to: gas pipe, existing ground rod, to copper water pipe (it ran from water meter to house), to new ground rod (over 6 feet away). Should cover everything!
Click to expand...

Gregg Harris said:
That will work.
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200 AMP?
 
kwired said:
I don't know - I am not a CSST expert, and the NEC does not cover CSST. That is my whole point. I get tired of gas men telling me I have to run a bond to their piping, and none of them ever have same requirements as to what they want done either. My opinion is it is their piping, I have met NEC requirements in most cases by having an equipment ground run to the gas appliance(s). If they want to install an inferior piping system that needs additional grounding methods then they better learn how to install their piping system to its specifications. In more recent code I have been required to install this intersystem bonding device, and as far as I am concerned they have one of those other systems that this is intended for - and it keeps them out of the electrical panels.
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A CSST "expert" is a rare entity. The reason for requiring the "bonding" of the material by an electrical contractor, is because it falls under the purview of electrical engineering and the sizing of the conductor is determined from NEC 250.122. Bonding of regular schedule 40 or 80 is required under 250.104(B) but for a different reason. The same principle but different reason.
250.104(B) is bonding of the piping that may possibly become energized by an electrical circuit.
The bonding of the CSST is required for lightning protection.

There are three technical committees from NFPA 54,70, and 780 along with independent third party testing that are working to create safe design and installation procedures.

If CSST is used on a job, charge to install the bonding the same as you would do for running a circuit to a hot water heater or air conditioner.
 
Gregg Harris said:
A CSST "expert" is a rare entity. The reason for requiring the "bonding" of the material by an electrical contractor, is because it falls under the purview of electrical engineering and the sizing of the conductor is determined from NEC 250.122. Bonding of regular schedule 40 or 80 is required under 250.104(B) but for a different reason. The same principle but different reason.
250.104(B) is bonding of the piping that may possibly become energized by an electrical circuit.
The bonding of the CSST is required for lightning protection.

There are three technical committees from NFPA 54,70, and 780 along with independent third party testing that are working to create safe design and installation procedures.

If CSST is used on a job, charge to install the bonding the same as you would do for running a circuit to a hot water heater or air conditioner.
Click to expand...

A CSST "expert" is a rare entity. Really?

determined from NEC 250.122. You sure?

The bonding of the CSST is required for lightning protection. Your source?

If CSST is used on a job, charge to install the bonding the same as you would do for running a circuit to a hot water heater or air conditioner. Your logic for this?
 
JDB3 said:
The gas pipe is the old black rigid pipe.
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That gas piping is only required to be bonded per 250.104(B).
As noted in that section, the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit likely to energize is normally consider to be sufficient.
If an additional bond is desired, it can be connected to the piping at any accessible location on the downstream side of the meter/isolation fitting.
 
JDB3 said:
The gas pipe in my situation is the old hard black rigid pipe. They request that I bond / ground using a #6 wire. In my case, I just ran a continuous #6 solid bare from service panel to: gas pipe, existing ground rod, to copper water pipe (it ran from water meter to house), to new ground rod (over 6 feet away). Should cover everything!
Click to expand...

jxofaltrds said:
200 AMP?
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Meaning a #6 GEC would be too small...
 
Gregg Harris said:
A CSST "expert" is a rare entity. The reason for requiring the "bonding" of the material by an electrical contractor, is because it falls under the purview of electrical engineering and the sizing of the conductor is determined from NEC 250.122. Bonding of regular schedule 40 or 80 is required under 250.104(B) but for a different reason. The same principle but different reason.
250.104(B) is bonding of the piping that may possibly become energized by an electrical circuit.
The bonding of the CSST is required for lightning protection.

There are three technical committees from NFPA 54,70, and 780 along with independent third party testing that are working to create safe design and installation procedures.

If CSST is used on a job, charge to install the bonding the same as you would do for running a circuit to a hot water heater or air conditioner.
Click to expand...

CSST is not mentioned in NEC. Bonding requirements come from product listing and instructions, not from 250.122 or any other part of NEC, outside of the 250.104(B) branch circuit(S) that may possibly energize ANY metallic gas piping.

Yes lightning is a major concern that has made the bonding a requirement but is associated only with CSST and is not a general rule for all gas piping. Lightning is not an issue for electrical concerns, it is an issue because the CSST has been shown to have failures resulting in gas leakage when subjected to carrying transients from lightning. A direct enough hit can still cause problems.
 
kwired said:
CSST is not mentioned in NEC. Bonding requirements come from product listing and instructions, not from 250.122 or any other part of NEC, outside of the 250.104(B) branch circuit(S) that may possibly energize ANY metallic gas piping.

Yes lightning is a major concern that has made the bonding a requirement but is associated only with CSST and is not a general rule for all gas piping. Lightning is not an issue for electrical concerns, it is an issue because the CSST has been shown to have failures resulting in gas leakage when subjected to carrying transients from lightning. A direct enough hit can still cause problems.[/QUOT

That is correct, it is not in the NEC yet, but the sizing for the suplimental bonding for regular gas pipiping as required by 250.104(B) is sized using Table 250.22 and when sizing the bonding jumper for the CSST you would use 250.66.
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Gregg Harris said:
kwired said:
CSST is not mentioned in NEC. Bonding requirements come from product listing and instructions, not from 250.122 or any other part of NEC, outside of the 250.104(B) branch circuit(S) that may possibly energize ANY metallic gas piping.

Yes lightning is a major concern that has made the bonding a requirement but is associated only with CSST and is not a general rule for all gas piping. Lightning is not an issue for electrical concerns, it is an issue because the CSST has been shown to have failures resulting in gas leakage when subjected to carrying transients from lightning. A direct enough hit can still cause problems.[/QUOT

and when sizing the bonding jumper for the CSST you would use 250.66.
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Where you getting that from. I understand many CSST instructions are what is requiring 6AWG and has nothing to do with 250.66. Unless those instructions mention 240.66, IDK I never see those instructions, I just read on here or have request by gas man to use 6AWG in almost all cases. If service is large enough you could end up needing 3/0 for the bond if you are supposed to use 250.66 - starts to make cutting and threading black pipe look inexpensive if you have to run very much 3/0 copper to bond the CSST.
Click to expand...
 
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