Gearing up for (inspection) battle

[pierre]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Scott
I am with you.... stubborn as a mule. I would not let that inspector have a moments peace. The heck with worrying about future inspections. I say bully a bully and you and other electricians will have different road in the future - this guy may even leave.
I had an inspection from an inspector that everyone was totally afraid of - give me a break. I went over his head on three jobs, and he stopped being such a jerk, actually he was fired ... not just from me, but eventually a letter of petition was sent to his boss and he was released.
Fight the fight and don't back down if you are right, but make sure you are right!!
Good Luck!!!

 

[jakeo]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Just to add my opinion to this,when i am in doubt or have a question i call the inspector first and get his opinion. This seems like it works out for the best because im not out there to fight with the inspector,just that i dont like doing my work twice.Also, remember.....he could become your best source of refrence or your worst enemy...its your choice!
Like my father always says,NEVER BURN A BRIDGE!

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

How about this? Yesterday I get a phone call from a super. He sounds irate, but he always sounds like that. "Bud, you are failing this six-plex bigtime!"
Why? "Insp. says you need a 1/0 water bond, and all he sees in here is a six, and you didn't drive a ground rod."

"No, I needed a 3/0 water bond, installed a 4/0 (%$#@ supply house), and it's hooked up! See the big wire the size of your thumb hooked up to the big water pipe in the fire room? Yeah, the one with the green tape on it? Yeah, the one in the disconnect? See the ground rod at the end of the six that comes out of the disconnect?"

The only thing worse than failing an inspection to made-up stuff, is failing because the inspector can't take the time/effort to look.

Grr...

 

[necbuff]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Be careful on this one. You stated you don't work in this area often. I don't know how often that?is, but make sure that county, town or whatever it is does not have any local amendments to the NEC. Nashville Tn has many of them, ie; you can only install (2) two receptacles on a small appliance branch circuit... period! Many areas adopt local codes through their legislative bodies so be careful, it may save some embarrassment. Some of the things you mentioned sound like Nashville.

[ December 17, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: necbuff ]

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Originally posted by necbuff:
you can only install (2) two receptacles on a small appliance branch circuit... period!

Wow, so that's only one duplex receptacle per circut.

That's -excuse me- stupid.

Whoever came up with that probably had good intentions, but....

 

[charlie]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Kenny, did you mean two receptacles or two receptacle outlets? Todd is right if you meant just two receptacles. If you meant two receptacle outlets, would that mean that I could install two (or more) duplex receptacles in a single receptacle outlet?

I would think the home builders associations would be up in arms about this since this would increase the final cost of a new home and make it more difficult to sell. Assuming you meant two receptacle outlets, it would take two circuits just for the dining room and one or two more for the breakfast area.

 

[spsnyder]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Electricmanscott,

How did the battle go this week? How did the inspections go?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Delayed a few days. Service and rough inspection Monday. I don't anticipate any problems. (Do we ever?) Kenny, as far as local amendments go, here in Massachusetts we use the NEC with state amendments. No local amendments. Some inspectors like to think so sometimes but most are ok to deal with. What a nightmare, and quite frankly a foolish idea, to have the rules change from town to town.

 

[necbuff]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Know the feeling Bro, been there. As far as the 2 recept deal, that is (2) two duplex recepts per one 20A circuit....period! The wording specificly says all "small appliance" branch circuits...period. But it is only ENFORCED on the countertop and ref outlets. So if you have more than 2 recepts on a 20A circuit serving the countertop, incl the ref, you are rejected. I voiced my concern over the wording, being the S-A branch circuits cover more than the counter but I don't know if the code language will be changed. I think someone was confused by not knowing what constituted a small applianance circuit. This is an old amendment. I am not sure when it was adopted though. The S-A definition may have been different at the time of adoption but I can not confirm that. And yes it is true. in even the smallest of homes you can end up with 6 or more 20A S-A circuits. It would depend on the length of the countertops and required spacing. Good luck. Hope you the best. I am hard headed too!

[ December 17, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]

 

[paul]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Delayed a few days. Service and rough inspection Monday. I don't anticipate any problems. (Do we ever?) Kenny, as far as local amendments go, here in Massachusetts we use the NEC with state amendments. No local amendments. Some inspectors like to think so sometimes but most are ok to deal with. What a nightmare, and quite frankly a foolish idea, to have the rules change from town to town.

Basically the same around here in WA. Some cities impose extra rules, but not too bad. One city, for example, you must have your two ground rods 16' apart. Another you can't use #14 AWG wire in residences. A third used to outlaw MC cable and PVC located inside. Sometimes the reminder hurts if you haven't done work there in awhile. Most times the bossman is reminding us, "remember 16' between ground rods," etc.

 

[bowman]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

i guess i will jump in late. Only get to check this out when not working. The nec is a minimum requirement. I agree w/ doing things to "code"
but i also agree w/ taking the design to the next level. So if the ahj wants X sometimes give em 2X. Especially when i know its in a "tough" area . After i feel i've pushed myself then let him have at it. Then i debate on articles. Let the articles take it further not an emotion.
sounds like you got a lot of ground water i have done work by the port of long beach and other areas like that and had to pump trenches for several days just so the pipe wouldn't float and it was just so we could get our conduit insp. backfill was a whole other task.

thanks i really enjoy reading all the responses across the board

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Originally posted by bowman:
I agree w/ doing things to "code"
but i also agree w/ taking the design to the next level. So if the ahj wants X sometimes give em 2X. Especially when i know its in a "tough" area

Do you bill the customer, or the inspector for 2X ? Sure as hell not coming out of my pocket.

 

[bowman]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

when i am involved on the design prior to bid or if its a change order then the customer would p/u the tab.

I guess what im sayin is that if I know the area that i am about to work in either I need to choose to bid in for it even if it doesnt specifically ask for it and hope i am not out of the park or prepare myself to do this and chaulk it up to reputation, and or training for some apprentice.. or walk from the job... all in all i am not talking about some high dollar stuff mainly more time/ odds and ends

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Inspections done, (except final). No problems whatsoever.

 

[physis]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

That's what I expected!

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Good News.

 

[guesseral]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Gfci protection for recessed lights over tub or shower.(Not NEC required)

Question: havent you ever seen the manufactures tag on a can that states if installed over a tub or a shower the fixture must be GFCI protected? Or am I just using the wrong fixtures?

We also have an inspector around here that requires some real weird stuff and there isn't any local ordances to back then up! He states that you cannot install non-metalic boxes unless you fire calk the box opening around the NM with fire caulk. You can't install 2-12/2 or 2-14/2 NM cables in one connector even though the mfg installation (UL listed) state you can, the same with 2 cables under one staple even though listed. No stabbing of devices at anytime, and no 14/2 allowed even on residential wiring. And not one ordanence to back any of it up. I have only done one house in that area, I do mostly commercial I guess it a good thing because I would be the one to argue every point, the only ones who would benefit would be the other contractors who obviously do not!

 

[hurk27]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

guesseral
What country are you in?
It sure doesn't sound like America!

In this country code enforcement has to follow the law, Not make his own law. I too have a few areas that the inspectors try to make there own code, and will make a statement like " if you wan't to do work in my jurisdiction" I just appall these people and what they stand for as this is not what our country is about! It is what our country is against!
That is why I'm am all for not allowing someone to just make there own rules just because they can show everyone who's in control. But with that said here in Indiana our state laws are very vague when it comes to challenging an inspector and it is even harder to get the state to do anything. The problem is the way the law is written the state has no authority over a what local government wants to adopt as long as it doesn't conflict with state law. so if the state does not have a law on the books that the local adopted law covers it's open game as to what they want to adopt. this is where the problem is, it leaves it up to us to sue the local government to get it resolved and this can take years and hold up the house in question which the contractor just hires another EC to get the house closed before the sale goes through. Then we are out in the cold. But I am being told from some state officials that after the first of the year there is going to be some changes in the law and our new Governor is going to get things done But they wont tell me what these changes are so I'll have to wait and see.

It's kind of funny that if we try to force our belief upon another we can be found breaking the law but if a inspector does this our state can't do anything because it's not there place or there's no laws for this. Sad ain't it.

 

[apauling]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

we all try to force our belifs on others in ways that are often cruel. i doubt that this is the saints' forum.

there is no law that specifically says that it is illegal to try to force your beliefs upon another. there are laws against certain actions that do this, but by no means, all of them.

paul

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Gearing up for (inspection) battle

Originally posted by guesseral:
Gfci protection for recessed lights over tub or shower.(Not NEC required)
Question: havent you ever seen the manufactures tag on a can that states if installed over a tub or a shower the fixture must be GFCI protected?

No I have never seen this on a recessed light fixture.