Generator Disconnect.

[dwellselectric]

So I went to look at a job of installing a 7 KW Generac generator and it came with a box to install on the outside of the house. It kinda looks like a disconnect and thought it was Til I opened it and it is just a splice box coming from the generator. When you lift the lid to the generator there is a double pole 30 amp breaker. My question is, is that breaker considered the disconnect needed or do I have to install a disconnect on the outside of the house next to the splice box? I never seen a generator shipped like this:-?

 

[George Stolz]

I believe that breaker is the generator disconnect required in 445.18.

 

[dwellselectric]

That is what I was thinking but I was unsure.

 

[mel bax]

Generator Disconnect

Generator Disconnect

You need to check article 702 before you decide to try to use the breaker your talking about as your required disconnect. Espically 702.11. Note it requires the disconnect to be Readily Accessible. If you look at the deffinition for Readily Accessible the disconnect under the lid does not meet the requirements

 

[celtic]

If you look at the deffinition for Readily Accessible the disconnect under the lid does not meet the requirements

Does that mean a disconnect cannot be behind a closed lockable door?

 

[jwelectric]

Either way the disconnect on the generator is not "within sight" which would not fit the requirements of 702.11

 

[celtic]

Either way the disconnect on the generator is not "within sight" which would not fit the requirements of 702.11

mel bax and you are correct.

 

[hillbilly1]

Either way the disconnect on the generator is not "within sight" which would not fit the requirements of 702.11

What is the definition of "within sight" that it does not qualify? Is it because it is not physically attached to the building? Is it because of the door? A lot of service rated 3R disconnects have lockable doors where the breaker is not seen until it is opened. Article 100 says the definition of "In site of" or "within site of" ".....the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15 m (50 ft) distant from the other". Just trying to look at it from your perspective.

 

[ptonsparky]

A/C disconnects are required to be "...within sight from and readily accessible from..." also. I guess there hasn't been a single disconnect I have used in the last 15 years that was legal if I follow this train of thought.

 

[jwelectric]

What is the definition of "within sight" that it does not qualify? Is it because it is not physically attached to the building? Is it because of the door? A lot of service rated 3R disconnects have lockable doors where the breaker is not seen until it is opened. Article 100 says the definition of "In site of" or "within site of" ".....the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15 m (50 ft) distant from the other". Just trying to look at it from your perspective.

A/C disconnects are required to be "...within sight from and readily accessible from..." also. I guess there hasn't been a single disconnect I have used in the last 15 years that was legal if I follow this train of thought.

For an air conditioner disconnect the disconnect enclosure is very visible. On a generator the disconnect nor the enclosure holding the disconnect is insight of the building with the cover down or door closed of the generator. All that is within sight of the building is the generator.

Now put me a disconnect on the building as outlined in 225.30 through 225.39

 

[ptonsparky]

Ok, went back & read the OP again, no argument, he needs an additional disconnect.

 

[hillbilly1]

The only true answer is to ask the code making panel that wrote 225, as to their intent of what this article covers. As also with laws, interpretation is 99%, Apparently 99% of inspectors, manufactures, engineers have a different interpretation, because only a few inspectors, engineers are requiring this. As with the manufactures, the Generac wiring is a complete system wired from the factory on these specific units, and adding a disconnect in between their factory wiring may violate their UL listing.

 

[jwelectric]

The only true answer is to ask the code making panel that wrote 225, as to their intent of what this article covers.

I love simple answers.

The code panel was very clear on what Article 225 was to address;
ARTICLE 225 Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders

As also with laws, interpretation is 99%, Apparently 99% of inspectors, manufactures, engineers have a different interpretation, because only a few inspectors, engineers are requiring this.

Do you think it possible that those few may be the only ones doing it the right way?

As with the manufactures, the Generac wiring is a complete system wired from the factory on these specific units, and adding a disconnect in between their factory wiring may violate their UL listing.

Unless the complete system, meaning the generator, feeders and transfer switch comes packaged together then there must be some field installation taking place.
Those items that are field installed must adhere to the requirements of the NEC.

In most cases the generator is one piece of equipment, the transfer switch another piece of equipment that is sometimes supplied by the generator manufacture but the feeders are field installed.
These feeders are on the outside and must comply with Article 225

 

[hillbilly1]

The generator that the OP is writing about does have factory installed and terminated feeders, the transfer switch comes with a 30' flex whip that has the conductors installed and terminated at the transfer switch, and at the other end it has factory terminated conductors that connect together with the factory installed whip from the generator.
225.30
Can the generator be considered a structure? It is basically a enclosed motor, which is not a building or structure, so it would not fall under this section.

And yes, it is possible that only a few are doing it the right way, Let me know how that works for you the next time you bid a large generator install including a $7000+ add, that nobody else is adding.

 

[jwelectric]

So I went to look at a job of installing a 7 KW Generac generator and it came with a box to install on the outside of the house. It kinda looks like a disconnect and thought it was Til I opened it and it is just a splice box coming from the generator. When you lift the lid to the generator there is a double pole 30 amp breaker. My question is, is that breaker considered the disconnect needed or do I have to install a disconnect on the outside of the house next to the splice box? I never seen a generator shipped like this

The generator that the OP is writing about does have factory installed and terminated feeders, the transfer switch comes with a 30' flex whip that has the conductors installed and terminated at the transfer switch, and at the other end it has factory terminated conductors that connect together with the factory installed whip from the generator.

I don?t see where it states that the generator and transfer switch come as a packaged unit. Even if it did come as a packaged unit it would not relieve the requirements of 225

225.30

Can the generator be considered a structure? It is basically a enclosed motor, which is not a building or structure, so it would not fall under this section.

Unless someone planted a seed and it grew there I would say it fits the definition of structure as outlined in Article 100.

At any rate the conductors coming from that piece of equipment are not service conductors and they are being terminated on a structure so again Article 225 would apply

And yes, it is possible that only a few are doing it the right way, Let me know how that works for you the next time you bid a large generator install including a $7000+ add, that nobody else is adding.

In my area it would work just fine due to the fact that we have went all over the state to discuss generator installations. When I say we I am referring to the North Carolina Ellis Cannady Chapter of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors. Last year we did eight seminars on the proper installation procedures for generators.

 

[hillbilly1]

You have along way to go, there are 49 more states to go, Or was it Obama that said there's what 57?

 

[jwelectric]

You have along way to go, there are 49 more states to go, Or was it Obama that said there's what 57?

No I think you are mistaken. It is only a few who don't yet understand the proper way to install a generator that is left to go.

 

[iwire]

Last year we did eight seminars on the proper installation procedures for generators. [/FONT][/SIZE]

Or at least how NC has interpreted it.

 

[jwelectric]

Or at least how NC has interpreted it.

Or maybe the whole of the IAEI interperted it

Or maybe the way is is supposed to be

Edited to add;

Just playing the "maybe" game here

 

[hillbilly1]

If the disconnect is not shown on the prints, it's still a change order. Better get busy with the engineers!