Generator Disconnect.

[iwire]

Maybe I have misunderstood your position.

Yes or no question.

Is it your position that all generator installations require separate disconnects to comply with 225 and 445?

 

[jwelectric]

to answer this question will take a few minutes so please be patient

 

[iwire]

to answer this question will take a few minutes so please be patient

In that case, don't got out of your way as I carefully asked a yes or no question. :smile:

 

[jwelectric]

In that case, don't got out of your way as I carefully asked a yes or no question. :smile:

There is no yes or no question without more information about the generator being installed.


The conductors from the generator to the building are not service conductors so they must comply with the Article covering feeders and branch circuits or Article 225.

These feeders from the generator are supplying something and this something is a structure or building.

Section .31 of Article 225 requires that a disconnect be installed for these feeders when they enter this building or structure.

For an optional standby system Section .11 of Article 702 states that a separate disconnect will not be required if the disconnect required by Section .18 of Article 445 is within sight of the building or structure.

This relief of the disconnect required by 445.18 mentioned in 702.11 must also meet all the criteria of Article 225 which would include 225.36.

Most of the optional generators being installed does not have a window that allows the disconnect required by 445.18 to be visible therefore negating the allowance found in 702.11.
Here we must understand that the words in 702.11 require that the disconnect be within sight of and not that the generator be within sight of;
702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36. (2008 code)

There has been much confusion about this disconnect for a long time as can be seen from the proposal submitted

13-181 Log #1285 NEC-P13 Final Action: Reject
(702.11, FPN (New) )
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark R. Hilbert, State of New Hampshire
Recommendation: Revise text to read:
702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets. Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure.
Add a new fine print note to read as follows:
FPN: Section 225.36 provides additional requirements for the suitability of the disconnecting means.
Substantiation: The recommendation for this fine print note is an attempt to identify the requirements of 225.36 for the building disconnecting means, which in this case will be located at the generator, to be ?suitable for use as service equipment.? Additionally, this FPN will help identify an often overlooked requirement, clarify that even though it is remote to the building, the disconnecting means must be suitable for use as service equipment and that the requirement in 225.36 is not amended by 702.11.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: See the panel action statement on Proposal 13-131.
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
Ballot Not Returned: 1 Gustafson, R.

From Proposal 13-131
Panel Statement: The disconnect required in 700.12(B)(6) is not intended to be a service disconnect.


The code panel in their statement says that the disconnect required by 445.18 is not required to be rated as service equipment but 225.36 which governs the requirement for the feeders does.
This makes the installation of a service rated disconnect required by the rules governing the feeders that leave the generator and enter the building.

In this picture the generator disconnect that is required by 445.18 is neither in sight of nor service rated.

Therefore this installation is noncode compliant.
In order to make this installation become code compliant the rules found in Article 225 must be met. 225.31 there must be a disconnect at the building and 225.36 this disconnect must be rated as service equipment.
After a little work and the spending of more money the installation was made code compliant.

 

[jwelectric]

In that case, don't got out of your way as I carefully asked a yes or no question. :smile:

No matter how careful you was, your question could not be answered with a yes or no.
Was this some kind of trick or something?

Now I took the time to answer your question almost four hours ago. Are you not even going to reply?

 

[iwire]

No matter how careful you was, your question could not be answered with a yes or no.
Was this some kind of trick or something?

It certainly could have been.

Is it your position that all generator installations require separate disconnects to comply with 225 and 445?

Was this some kind of trick or something?

No trick, just that up to this point your posts in this thread give me the the impression that all outdoor gensets must have two electrical disconnect switches.

Now I took the time to answer your question almost four hours ago. Are you not even going to reply?

No you did not answer my question, you put together a long post. :roll:

Mike, Install a service rated electrical disconnect to comply with 225 and the natural gas valve usually found in sight outside the genset can satisfy 445.

I can't think of any generator installations I have been involved with that did not have means to 'readily shut down' the driving means.

 

[jwelectric]

It certainly could have been.





No trick, just that up to this point your posts in this thread give me the the impression that all outdoor gensets must have two electrical disconnect switches.




No you did not answer my question, you put together a long post. :roll:

Mike, Install a service rated electrical disconnect to comply with 225 and the natural gas valve usually found in sight outside the genset can satisfy 445.

I can't think of any generator installations I have been involved with that did not have means to 'readily shut down' the driving means.

Yes Bob I agree that a kill switch will satisfy the requirement of 445.18 but it will not satisfy the requirement of 225.36. The shut off valve is very questionable.

The requirement for a disconnect at the generator as outlined in 445.18 has nothing to do at all with 225.36 unless it is service rated and the disconnect can be seen from the transfer switch, not the generator.

I challenge you or anyone else to show me where you find verbiage that will allow

 

[iwire]

Yes Bob I agree that a kill switch will satisfy the requirement of 445.18 but it will not satisfy the requirement of 225.36.

Mike I said install a service rated switch to satisfy 225.

Then 445 can be satisfied in a number of ways from an e-stop, to a fuel cut off etc.

 

[dwellselectric]

The only true answer is to ask the code making panel that wrote 225, as to their intent of what this article covers. As also with laws, interpretation is 99%, Apparently 99% of inspectors, manufactures, engineers have a different interpretation, because only a few inspectors, engineers are requiring this. As with the manufactures, the Generac wiring is a complete system wired from the factory on these specific units, and adding a disconnect in between their factory wiring may violate their UL listing.

It is a Generac generator and its prefab cables. So I dont knwo if I should take them apart to add a disconnect or if the disconnect in the generator itself is sutable:-? I thought that it came with a disconnect because it has a box that you would mount on the house that looks like a disconnect but when I opened it all that it was, was a splice box

 

[jwelectric]

It is a Generac generator and its prefab cables. So I dont knwo if I should take them apart to add a disconnect or if the disconnect in the generator itself is sutable:-? I thought that it came with a disconnect because it has a box that you would mount on the house that looks like a disconnect but when I opened it all that it was, was a splice box

In order for the disconnect on the generator to be the only disconnect between the generator and the transfer switch the switch on the generator must be;
1- Visible from the transfer switch. This means that the switch on the generator must be visible not the generator
2- The switch on the generator must be rated as service equipment. If it is rated as service equipment it will say that it is suitable as service equipments. It is not something you will have to figure out.
3- Or the transfer switch itself will be required to be rated as service equipment.
I have no idea what you have that come with the generator. Maybe a picture or a make and model number would help.

 

[electricalperson]

So I went to look at a job of installing a 7 KW Generac generator and it came with a box to install on the outside of the house. It kinda looks like a disconnect and thought it was Til I opened it and it is just a splice box coming from the generator. When you lift the lid to the generator there is a double pole 30 amp breaker. My question is, is that breaker considered the disconnect needed or do I have to install a disconnect on the outside of the house next to the splice box? I never seen a generator shipped like this:-?

i install generators like that all the time. i have one on my house. its the prewired version by guardian. the breaker inside of the generator counts as its disconnect. just feed the transfer switch in the basement with a 2 pole breaker and your good to go.

 

[electricalperson]

it actually is a disconnect. the feeder is disconnected inside the generator and the control wiring plugs in which you can take apart if you want to disconnect the control wiring for whatever reason

 

[jwelectric]

i install generators like that all the time. i have one on my house. its the prewired version by guardian. the breaker inside of the generator counts as its disconnect. just feed the transfer switch in the basement with a 2 pole breaker and your good to go.

The disconnect on the generator will count as the disconnect required by 225.36 ONLY if it is
1- Visible from the transfer switch. This means that the switch on the generator must be visible not the generator
2- The switch on the generator must be rated as service equipment. If it is rated as service equipment it will say that it is suitable as service equipments. It is not something you will have to figure out.
3- Or the transfer switch itself will be required to be rated as service equipment.

 

[iwire]

In order for the disconnect on the generator to be the only disconnect between the generator and the transfer switch the switch on the generator must be;
..................

2- The switch on the generator must be rated as service equipment. If it is rated as service equipment it will say that it is suitable as service equipments. It is not something you will have to figure out.
3- Or the transfer switch itself will be required to be rated as service equipment.

I agree with Mike's quote above.

 

[iwire]

i install generators like that all the time. i have one on my house. its the prewired version by guardian. the breaker inside of the generator counts as its disconnect. just feed the transfer switch in the basement with a 2 pole breaker and your good to go.

Truthfully that is very likely a violation for the very reason Mike has pointed out.

The disconnect MUST BE service rated to comply with 225.36

 

[iwire]

1- Visible from the transfer switch. This means that the switch on the generator must be visible not the generator

Mike where are you getting that from?

 

[steelersman]

You need to check article 702 before you decide to try to use the breaker your talking about as your required disconnect. Espically 702.11. Note it requires the disconnect to be Readily Accessible. If you look at the deffinition for Readily Accessible the disconnect under the lid does not meet the requirements

BS. That is the disconnect for the generator. You can use that as it is readily accessible. All you have to do is lift the lid and voila! turn off the breaker to disconnect the generator. I can't understand why some people on here try to be so technical and it seems that they take pleasure in trying to find any way they can to complicate things.

 

[iwire]

I can't understand why some people on here try to be so technical

Becuse it is a CODE forum, not a 'how would we like to do it' fourm. :smile:

 

[steelersman]

So I went to look at a job of installing a 7 KW Generac generator and it came with a box to install on the outside of the house. It kinda looks like a disconnect and thought it was Til I opened it and it is just a splice box coming from the generator. When you lift the lid to the generator there is a double pole 30 amp breaker. My question is, is that breaker considered the disconnect needed or do I have to install a disconnect on the outside of the house next to the splice box? I never seen a generator shipped like this:-?

I can tell you that I wired one very recently that was the exact same brand only a little more wattage (which doesn't matter) and it passed inspection without me adding a disconnect on the building next to the splice box. And I might add that I'm not in PA or any of those states that have lax rules or whatever. I say go for it.

 

[iwire]

it passed inspection

Passing inspection has little to do with the rules as written, inspectors are just like the rest of us, they do not always know the exact rules.