Generator Disconnect.

[steelersman]

There is no yes or no question without more information about the generator being installed.


The conductors from the generator to the building are not service conductors so they must comply with the Article covering feeders and branch circuits or Article 225.

These feeders from the generator are supplying something and this something is a structure or building.

Section .31 of Article 225 requires that a disconnect be installed for these feeders when they enter this building or structure.

For an optional standby system Section .11 of Article 702 states that a separate disconnect will not be required if the disconnect required by Section .18 of Article 445 is within sight of the building or structure.

This relief of the disconnect required by 445.18 mentioned in 702.11 must also meet all the criteria of Article 225 which would include 225.36.

Most of the optional generators being installed does not have a window that allows the disconnect required by 445.18 to be visible therefore negating the allowance found in 702.11.
Here we must understand that the words in 702.11 require that the disconnect be within sight of and not that the generator be within sight of;
702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36. (2008 code)

There has been much confusion about this disconnect for a long time as can be seen from the proposal submitted

13-181 Log #1285 NEC-P13 Final Action: Reject
(702.11, FPN (New) )
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mark R. Hilbert, State of New Hampshire
Recommendation: Revise text to read:
702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets. Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure.
Add a new fine print note to read as follows:
FPN: Section 225.36 provides additional requirements for the suitability of the disconnecting means.
Substantiation: The recommendation for this fine print note is an attempt to identify the requirements of 225.36 for the building disconnecting means, which in this case will be located at the generator, to be ?suitable for use as service equipment.? Additionally, this FPN will help identify an often overlooked requirement, clarify that even though it is remote to the building, the disconnecting means must be suitable for use as service equipment and that the requirement in 225.36 is not amended by 702.11.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: See the panel action statement on Proposal 13-131.
Number Eligible to Vote: 14
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13
Ballot Not Returned: 1 Gustafson, R.

From Proposal 13-131
Panel Statement: The disconnect required in 700.12(B)(6) is not intended to be a service disconnect.


The code panel in their statement says that the disconnect required by 445.18 is not required to be rated as service equipment but 225.36 which governs the requirement for the feeders does.
This makes the installation of a service rated disconnect required by the rules governing the feeders that leave the generator and enter the building.

In this picture the generator disconnect that is required by 445.18 is neither in sight of nor service rated.

Therefore this installation is noncode compliant.
In order to make this installation become code compliant the rules found in Article 225 must be met. 225.31 there must be a disconnect at the building and 225.36 this disconnect must be rated as service equipment.
After a little work and the spending of more money the installation was made code compliant.

remember that in the OP's post that it's a 7KW generator and so is most likely not supplying the whole house just the selected circuits to be covered in power outage. These generators come with the transfer switch and panel.

 

[steelersman]

In order for the disconnect on the generator to be the only disconnect between the generator and the transfer switch the switch on the generator must be;
1- Visible from the transfer switch. This means that the switch on the generator must be visible not the generator
2- The switch on the generator must be rated as service equipment. If it is rated as service equipment it will say that it is suitable as service equipments. It is not something you will have to figure out.
3- Or the transfer switch itself will be required to be rated as service equipment.
I have no idea what you have that come with the generator. Maybe a picture or a make and model number would help.

Aha. Now I remember that those transfer switches do have a main breaker in the transfer switch panel. So that covers the requirement.

 

[iwire]

Aha. Now I remember that those transfer switches do have a main breaker in the transfer switch panel. So that covers the requirement.

If they are in fact "service rated" (and they might be)

 

[jwelectric]

So I went to look at a job of installing a 7 KW Generac generator and it came with a box to install on the outside of the house. It kinda looks like a disconnect and thought it was Til I opened it and it is just a splice box coming from the generator. When you lift the lid to the generator there is a double pole 30 amp breaker. My question is, is that breaker considered the disconnect needed or do I have to install a disconnect on the outside of the house next to the splice box? I never seen a generator shipped like this:-?

Is this what came with that generator?

 

[jwelectric]

Aha. Now I remember that those transfer switches do have a main breaker in the transfer switch panel. So that covers the requirement.

Only if it is service rated. If it is service rated then it will have an external switch that will turn both the power company and the generator off.

 

[hillbilly1]

remember that in the OP's post that it's a 7KW generator and so is most likely not supplying the whole house just the selected circuits to be covered in power outage. These generators come with the transfer switch and panel.

Finally an answer that is not a personal opinion, but based upon the CMP recomendations, Nice to change the post after it was answered to include this JWElectric. Looks like this was not as cut and dried as you said.

 

[jwelectric]

Finally an answer that is not a personal opinion, but based upon the CMP recomendations, Nice to change the post after it was answered to include this JWElectric. Looks like this was not as cut and dried as you said.

I don?t matter if the generator is supplying only one circuit in that house it still is required to comply with Article 225.

225 is clear in the statements that a disconnecting means is required;

225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure.

And this disconnecting means is required to be service rated;

225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment.
The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

There is absolutely no way around these two code sections. The generator company can send whatever they like with the generator but those two sections of code must be complied with.

 

[RUWired]

Either way the disconnect on the generator is not "within sight" which would not fit the requirements of 702.11

Mike, How do you keep that logic when the outdoor service rated disconnect is in a free standing pad mounted 3R enclosure. Both the free standing enclosure and the generator disconnect (service rated) require a locked door to open.
Rick

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, How do you keep that logic when the outdoor service rated disconnect is in a free standing pad mounted 3R enclosure. Both the free standing enclosure and the generator disconnect (service rated) require a locked door to open.
Rick

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.

The requirememt is for the disconnect to be within sight not the generator. If you can see the disconnect from the transfer switch and the disconnect on the generator is service rated then no disconnect on the building would be required.

 

[steelersman]

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.

The requirememt is for the disconnect to be within sight not the generator. If you can see the disconnect from the transfer switch and the disconnect on the generator is service rated then no disconnect on the building would be required.

well actually it what you quoted just said nothing about it being within sight of the transfer switch, but in sight of the building or structure supplied. So if the generator has the disconnect inside of it and it's sitting right next to the building then it is covered. The transfer switch is located in the house, so it wouldn't be visible from the transfer switch.

 

[jwelectric]

well actually it what you quoted just said nothing about it being within sight of the transfer switch, but in sight of the building or structure supplied. So if the generator has the disconnect inside of it and it's sitting right next to the building then it is covered. The transfer switch is located in the house, so it wouldn't be visible from the transfer switch.

Yes the Disconnect does not have to be visible from the transfer switch but the Disconnect has to be within sight

In Sight From (Within Sight From, Within Sight). Where this Code specifies that one equipment shall be ?in sight from,? ?within sight from,? or ?within sight of,? and so forth, another equipment, the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15 m (50 ft) distant from the other.

The disconnect is what is required to be within sight of,

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.


It is not talking about the generator being insight of

 

[steelersman]

Yes the Disconnect does not have to be visible from the transfer switch but the Disconnect has to be within sight

In Sight From (Within Sight From, Within Sight). Where this Code specifies that one equipment shall be ?in sight from,? ?within sight from,? or ?within sight of,? and so forth, another equipment, the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15 m (50 ft) distant from the other.

The disconnect is what is required to be within sight of,

702.11 Outdoor Generator Sets.
Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.


It is not talking about the generator being insight of

right it's not talking about the transfer switch being within sight but the disconnect being within sight of the building. So like I said before. It's quite simple.

 

[jwelectric]

right it's not talking about the transfer switch being within sight but the disconnect being within sight of the building. So like I said before. It's quite simple.

No what you said was;
So if the generator has the disconnect inside of it and it's sitting right next to the building then it is covered.

Just because you can see the generator that is sitting there it don?t mean you can see the disconnect on the inside of that generator now does it? The disconnect MUST be in sight of which means you can see the disconnect itself.

And unless that disconnect on or in that generator is rated as service equipment it wouldn?t matter if you could see it or not, it still would require one on the building.

 

[steelersman]

No what you said was;
So if the generator has the disconnect inside of it and it's sitting right next to the building then it is covered.

Just because you can see the generator that is sitting there it don?t mean you can see the disconnect on the inside of that generator now does it? The disconnect MUST be in sight of which means you can see the disconnect itself.

And unless that disconnect on or in that generator is rated as service equipment it wouldn?t matter if you could see it or not, it still would require one on the building.

A readily accessible disconnecting means in sight of the building or structure. If you open that lid you can see that disconnect. And your already next to or at the the building or structure. So therefore the disconnect is within sight of the building or structure. Besides why were you talking about the transfer switch before. I think you are very confused.

 

[jwelectric]

A readily accessible disconnecting means in sight of the building or structure. If you open that lid you can see that disconnect. And your already next to or at the the building or structure. So therefore the disconnect is within sight of the building or structure. Besides why were you talking about the transfer switch before. I think you are very confused.

No the disconnect has to be insight of not after you open the lid you can see it.

Your thinking it would be okay to sit it around the corner, all you would have to do is take a couple of steps and then see it.

It still would have to be rated as service equipment, 225.36.