Generator Interlock Kits

[Strummed]

I fail to see where the debate about these pieces of junk comes into play with inspectors or electricians.

If you live in a state that requires a third party listing on equipment that is connected to the premises wiring system the use of a generator that would be used with this junk is not allowed in the first place.

To say that someone if forcing people to do illegal installations is like saying that I am late for an appointment and that school zone that I have to drive through to get there is forcing me to break the speed limit.

We must remember that convenience does not constitute an emergency.

http://www.pacoa.com/products/elect...aco-8192-4-x-1-1-2-square-box-00192-1900.html

This box has a UL listing so because it has a UL mark I think that I will use it for a junction in the center of a spray paint booth, what do you think about that? One is as bad as the other.

It's clear that you don't like interlocks and that is biasing your position on the subject.

The problem that you are not seeing is that these interlocks are passed on some jobs as being perfectly fine and code compliant, yet on other jobs they are failed.

Some inspectors are like you (dislike interlocks) and fail them while the next inspector would have no problem passing them.

As people agreed earlier, many of the excuses are lame. "It weakens the panel" or "It doesn't switch the neutral" (neither does most transfer panels) etc.

 

[iwire]

What difference are you looking for?

Unlicensed electrical work is bad.

Unpermitted electrical work by a licensed electrician is common, you know that and take part in it.

Both are just as ilegal and both are just as bad.

For you to try to take some moral high ground just because you have a license is ridiculous.

Yes I have done unpermitted work, but I don't try to pretend that is ok becuse I have a license.

 

[Strummed]

Both are just as ilegal and both are just as bad.

That is untrue. Doing electrical work without a license in my state is a felony.

For you to try to take some moral high ground just because you have a license is ridiculous.

It's not a moral high ground, it's a simple and logical complaint. Are you actually trying to say that a licensed, insured, and legit contractor not pulling a permit for a small job is just as bad as a completely unlicensed, uninsured person doing electrical work? :roll:

Yes I have done unpermitted work, but I don't try to pretend that is ok becuse I have a license.

You don't have a license.

 

[mjf]

That is untrue. Doing electrical work without a license in my state is a felony.

And a license is NOT required in NY state, but a permit and an inspection are. I don't have a license. I don't work in municipalities or counties that require one. I am fully insured. I install per NEC code and local amendments. I've been in business for myself for 13 years. I stay fairly busy. I stay teachable. I'm just a hack.

You can rationalize whatever you want to.

The law is the law.

The code is the code.

Enjoy the day.

 

[Strummed]

And a license is NOT required in NY state, but a permit and an inspection are.

And that is fine (and clearly a different subject).

You can rationalize whatever you want to.

The law is the law.

The code is the code.

Enjoy the day.

I don't have to rationalize it. Rational people understand it, and do it. It's only when people want to act holier than thou does it need to be explained.

 

[infinity]

And that is fine (and clearly a different subject).

Yes it's a different subject so let's get back on topic. If you want to debate the merits of licensed vs. unlicensed or not filing jobs and getting inspections let's start a new thread.

 

[iwire]

That is untrue. Doing electrical work without a license in my state is a felony.

I will have to take your word on that.

It is not a felony in the three states I hold licenses in.

Are you actually trying to say that a licensed, insured, and legit contractor not pulling a permit for a small job is just as bad as a completely unlicensed, uninsured person doing electrical work? :roll:

I am trying to say that a licensed contractor that specificaly skips permits and inspections so they can use equipment that they know would be turned down is in fact just as bad as an unlicensed person doing electrical work.

You don't have a license.

Hmmm, so the paper cards in my wallet I have from MA, CT and RI that required 4 years on the job training plus school time are not licenses?

The one I use when I pull a permit in MA is not a license?

Man, I leaned something today.

 

[mjf]

Yes it's a different subject so let's get back on topic. If you want to debate the merits of licensed vs. unlicensed or not filing jobs and getting inspections let's start a new thread.

Great idea to get back on topic.


Interlock kits

UL listed interlock kits are accepted by licensed electrical inspectors as code compliant on installations that have been issued a permit by a municipality. (I think that covers it)

If they are not accepted in your area I would ask the inspector for a code section prohibiting them.

 

[infinity]

Great idea to get back on topic.


Interlock kits

UL listed interlock kits are accepted by licensed electrical inspectors as code compliant on installations that have been issued a permit by a municipality. (I think that covers it)

If they are not accepted in your area I would ask the inspector for a code section prohibiting them.

IMO the debate falls on the interpretation of them being identified.

As Strummed stated leaving the decision up to the EI who walks in the door can create great conflict because the guy in the next town allows them but the EI in this town doesn't. It would be nice if, in this case, the State of NJ made a ruling one way or another.

 

[goldstar]

This was the initial question by the OP :

Would someone accept these third party interlocks as code compliant even though they're not listed?

I think we've drifted far from that original question. I truly want to believe that the vast majority of us here in the Forum :

• Have a license in their State or work for someone with a license
• Do high quality work
• Obtain permits for work that requires permits
• Install only the highest quality and listed equipment and materials irrespective of price
• Work in only the safest ways (i.e. don't work live circuits)

I can go on and on but the fact of the matter is we all know this isn't always the case and it isn't the real world.

Having said that, the fact that some of these interlock kits may not be UL listed with a particular panel manufacturer doesn't change the fact that they are a safety device and they work just as well as the ones manufactured by the panel maker. The issue that jwelectric brought up is a valid issue but we've had that discussion in another thread and it really doesn't answer the OP's question. If we follow JW's line of thinking we might as well scrap this whole thread because his argument is that we can't connect portable generators to house wiring in the first place. Take a ride up to NJ, NY or CT and tell that to the people who were without power for weeks during Hurricane Sandy. Or, stand in front of Home Depot or Lowe's while they're unloading portables from the back of a semi and tell people they cannot connect these generators to the wiring in their houses. Make sure you're in a cage because you will get stoned (and I don't mean on whacky weed).

I'm not one to go out and promote the use of one of these interlock devices. I would much rather install a NG standby generator with a properly installed xfer switch and get it inspected. However, when you tell people that they're in the $10K+ area for one of these units your potential customers start to drop like flies. For those who want to spend the least amount of $$ but be protected I generally propose the use of a portable generator and a Reliance xfer panel or an EZ generator switch. In cases where neither xfer switch is practical my last resort is to recommend an interlock kit but with the caveat that they will not be accepted by the municipality. If we get to that point we should all just walk away. But in reality we all know that they willl probably hire their neighbor's brother's, friend of another neighbor's son who works for Radio Shack to do the work. In all fairness, I would rather do the install with the interlock kit myself knowing that i did it correctly and that it's safe. Aside from violation a code of ethics by not pulling a permit (like we're all not out there cutting each others' throats) show me where the danger is.

 

[iwire]

IMO the debate falls on the interpretation of them being identified.

As Strummed stated leaving the decision up to the EI who walks in the door can create great conflict because the guy in the next town allows them but the EI in this town doesn't. It would be nice if, in this case, the State of NJ made a ruling one way or another.

I have installed exactly one interlock kit and to avoid all this listing issues I simply bought it from Square D for a Square D panel. It was also less money then the ones from the third party.

 

[infinity]

I have installed exactly one interlock kit and to avoid all this listing issues I simply bought it from Square D for a Square D panel. It was also less money then the ones from the third party.

That's the best approach to avoid any conflict but this is a problem with older panels where the manufacturer doesn't make a listed interlock kit.

 

[iwire]

That's the best approach to avoid any conflict but this is a problem with older panels where the manufacturer doesn't make a listed interlock kit.

In those cases another approach might be needed, assuming there is room a manual transfer switch would not add that much labor.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/SiteCo.../1_10/1/Final5.10-04-SSBR-01000-0104.pdf-.pdf

 

[Strummed]

That's the best approach to avoid any conflict but this is a problem with older panels where the manufacturer doesn't make a listed interlock kit.

In addition to that, I have heard of inspectors in NJ failing interlock kits made by the manufacturer.

 

[Strummed]

In those cases another approach might be needed, assuming there is room a manual transfer switch would not add that much labor.

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/SiteCo.../1_10/1/Final5.10-04-SSBR-01000-0104.pdf-.pdf

That's true, but it's a shame because those are expensive and require a significant amount of labor in most cases. Having to re-route the SEC's, move the MBJ and usually separate the grounds and neutrals in what used to be the main panel, etc. In the end, you get a system that is basically the same as using the Interlock. And you did all that just because you didn't want to take the chance of getting an inspector who didn't like Interlocks. Imagine if you installed all that and the inspector came and said "Why didn't you just use an Interlock??" :lol:

 

[mjf]

This whole thread is sort of funny in a sad kind of way....we are such a spoiled nation! We can't go a day without our entire houses electrical system available to us.

Most folks are thrilled with a 6 (or 10) circuit transfer switch and "critical" loads available (heat, fridge, etc). I don't have to explain that they'll kill their little portable generator if they act like they're running off of utility power like I do with the interlock kit

Thats what I sell when its a panel that doesn't have a UL listed interlock.

 

[jwelectric]

I fail to see where the debate about these pieces of junk comes into play with inspectors or electricians.

If you live in a state that requires a third party listing on equipment that is connected to the premises wiring system the use of a generator that would be used with this junk is not allowed in the first place.

To say that someone if forcing people to do illegal installations is like saying that I am late for an appointment and that school zone that I have to drive through to get there is forcing me to break the speed limit.

We must remember that convenience does not constitute an emergency.

http://www.pacoa.com/products/elect...aco-8192-4-x-1-1-2-square-box-00192-1900.html

This box has a UL listing so because it has a UL mark I think that I will use it for a junction in the center of a spray paint booth, what do you think about that? One is as bad as the other.

]It's clear that you don't like interlocks and that is biasing your position on the subject.

The problem that you are not seeing is that these interlocks are passed on some jobs as being perfectly fine and code compliant, yet on other jobs they are failed.

Some inspectors are like you (dislike interlocks) and fail them while the next inspector would have no problem passing them.

As people agreed earlier, many of the excuses are lame. "It weakens the panel" or "It doesn't switch the neutral" (neither does most transfer panels) etc.

It is not a matter of if I like or dislike the junk people install. It is a matter of ethics and the law.

I have been in this trade probably longer than you are old. I have done much work in areas in years gone by that didn?t have an inspection department but I still obeyed the adopted laws in my area, the code. I have even in today?s market seen differences between how inspectors will inspect between different jurisdictions. These fine folks are no different than you and I, they are human. They also have opinions.

Some inspectors just like some electricians do not have the knowledge to do proper inspections. This is the very reason that each year I voice my opinion to the DOI for the need of continuing education for inspectors. I also voice this same opinion to the licensing board for electrical contractors.

Yes many of their excuses are lame but it doesn?t matter about their excuses, portable generators are not to be installed to a premises wiring system except as a SDS and this junk does not connect them as a SDS therefore they are not legal for this type of installation. They can have any marking on them you want but to use them outside their scope in no way makes the installation legal.

Look closely to 110.3(B) and look closely at UL FTCN. UL FTCN is the listing and labeling for portable generators. If we are going to discuss the use of listed equipment that is to be used let?s look at the listing of the complete installation.

 

[jwelectric]

This whole thread is sort of funny in a sad kind of way....we are such a spoiled nation! We can't go a day without our entire houses electrical system available to us.

Most folks are thrilled with a 6 (or 10) circuit transfer switch and "critical" loads available (heat, fridge, etc). I don't have to explain that they'll kill their little portable generator if they act like they're running off of utility power like I do with the interlock kit

Thats what I sell when its a panel that doesn't have a UL listed interlock.

I have two generators and yes I have been without power for many days during cold weather.

Guess what I don't have. Guess how I use my generators. Yep you got it, cords

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure Roger but I don't think they have a gripe with drilling holes in the "meaty" portion of the panel cover but rather the thin rib portion that holds the branch circuit breakers in.

Since when did the panel cover hold in the breakers? IMO if a plug on breaker will not stay attached to the bus without the cover, you have a weak connection waiting to make for additional problems.

LOL.

I've installed the listed Sq D interlocks and from experience I can say that they work well. Paying $80 for a few pieces of metal and a bag of screws is similar to being mugged. :roll:

They can get away with charging that, and even the $150.00 Interlockit made devices because it still is less cost than purchasing a transfer switch, they will sell.

IMO the debate falls on the interpretation of them being identified.

As Strummed stated leaving the decision up to the EI who walks in the door can create great conflict because the guy in the next town allows them but the EI in this town doesn't. It would be nice if, in this case, the State of NJ made a ruling one way or another.

Consistency throughout a jurisdiction on any topic is something installers would really like to have, and IMO is the way it should be. The State AHJ here does try to make this happen as much as possible, and if you would have such a problem here you can go over the local inspector with the issue, but if you go about it in a civil way your local inspector likely will ask his superiors before you go down that road.

In addition to that, I have heard of inspectors in NJ failing interlock kits made by the manufacturer.

Probably more of a case of seeing something they are not used to seeing, and if they don't like it they are likely to try to prove that it is not allowed, instead of looking at reasons why it may be allowed. They really should approach things they have not seen as something to learn about instead of going into any research with misconceptions, resulting in one sided approach to the research.

 

[infinity]

In addition to that, I have heard of inspectors in NJ failing interlock kits made by the manufacturer.

Based on what? I would be calling the DCA before the ink dried on the red sticker.