Generator panel... so close, no cigar.

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mdshunk

mdshunk

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Took some pics of a brand new generator panel install in the basement of a dwelling. The panel on the far left is the generator panel. It is fed though the "normal" breaker with the SER cable on the right protected at 100 amps. The EMT coming out the bottom goes to the generator. It has the proper hold down/interlock kit from Square D holding down the top right two breakers. The EMT ell into the side contains the circuits they transferred over from the service panel. The SER leaving out the left (origination from the main lugs of the generator panel) just goes to an outbuilding. They're using the main lugs like feed through lugs, which is fine in this case, since the panel is protected at 100 amp, and it's 100 amp SER. The next pic is the problem. The "generator inlet" is a rubber cord hanging on a hose holder, ready to put out the window and plug into a portable generator when the need arises. This is a very common installation method in my area, but I don't believe it totally squares with the NEC.

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I put in a simular system to a building but it was with a built in male connector on the bottom side of an outdoor enclosure disconnect.The male end will never see power with the interlock in the panel.The disconnect was supplied from the same manufacturer as the transfer switch.But the real question is the use of the cord ?
Rick
 
RUWired said:
The male end will never see power with the interlock in the panel.
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You are correct, sir.

RUWired said:
But the real question is the use of the cord ?
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Yes, that's really the only thing I have an issue with. I'd be hard pressed to tell you, however, why an inlet with a separate "extension cord" is any safer.
 
mdshunk said:
Yes, that's really the only thing I have an issue with. I'd be hard pressed to tell you, however, why an inlet with a separate "extension cord" is any safer.
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I would prefer to see an inlet with a separate "extension cord" outside, to prevent that cord going through the window. 400.8(3)
 
JohnJ0906 said:
I would prefer to see an inlet with a separate "extension cord" outside, to prevent that cord going through the window. 400.8(3)
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I guess I'd have to agree with that too.

Do they do this type of install in your area, John? I know your'e not too far from me, but you probably don't get out into the country much.
 
I would have an issue with what is in the outbuilding. What does that draw? If they fed it with a 100a line, then surely that 20- or 30-amp output on the genny isn't going to cut it.

Sure, they may say, "Well, I'll just turn off the unneeded breakers before I start the generator," but it only takes one time to forget and then poof, you release all the smoke in your genny.

As far as a power inlet goes, it would have been soooooo easy to stick on just outside the rim joist in a 3R box.

I don't see much in the way of neutrals in the genny panel. My guess is they are landed in the main panel.
 
480sparky said:
I would have an issue with what is in the outbuilding. What does that draw? If they fed it with a 100a line, then surely that 20- or 30-amp output on the genny isn't going to cut it.

Sure, they may say, "Well, I'll just turn off the unneeded breakers before I start the generator," but it only takes one time to forget and then poof, you release all the smoke in your genny.
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The backfed breaker for the generator input was marked 30 amps, and it was a 6500 watt generator, so probably no issues there. The outbuilding was a horse barn, and contained lighting, water font heaters, a domestic water heater, some baseboard heat, and a washer/dryer connection. They would definitely have to turn much of that off to keep the generator breaker from tripping.

480sparky said:
As far as a power inlet goes, it would have been soooooo easy to stick on just outside the rim joist in a 3R box.
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I agree, particularly since that 4-square was high enough to nipple out of the back.

480sparky said:
I don't see much in the way of neutrals in the genny panel. My guess is they are landed in the main panel.
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Actually, they sorta blend in on the pic. They were all properly there in the generator panel. They ran over MWBC's. That part was right. They left the EGC's in the service panel, which is okay.
 
mdshunk said:
I guess I'd have to agree with that too.

Do they do this type of install in your area, John? I know your'e not too far from me, but you probably don't get out into the country much.
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Most of our generator installs are auto-transfer, hard wired, permanently installed units. If we do an install for a portable generator, we do an exterior inlet (to prevent any temptation to run the genny inside) with a seperate cord (so it can stay inside, out of the weather when not in use)

The above is what the company I work for does, and seems to be the usual around here.

And I do get out into the country once in a while. :wink:
 
IF i was an inspector, i would be concerned that the cord set in the dwelling basement "where a portable gen set could be brought to" could knock out all the people.Sticking a rubber cord through a window would also be an issue.
Rick
 
RUWired said:
IF i was an inspector, i would be concerned that the cord set in the dwelling basement "where a portable gen set could be brought to" could knock out all the people.
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Oddly, you'd have no code to base that on. Save for the fact that this install has a cord, you could compliantly put an inlet in the basement. There'd just be no safe way to use it, other than to put a cord out the window. That's not really anything that a guy could get a red tag for.
 
mdshunk said:
The backfed breaker for the generator input was marked 30 amps, and it was a 6500 watt generator, so probably no issues there. The outbuilding was a horse barn, and contained lighting, water font heaters, a domestic water heater, some baseboard heat, and a washer/dryer connection. They would definitely have to turn much of that off to keep the generator breaker from tripping.
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Time for Marc the Salesman to go to work.....:smile:
 
480sparky said:
Time for Marc the Salesman to go to work.....:smile:
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It is interesting to note that the Kellems type cord connector that was used in the 4-square was probably halfway to the cost of a proper NEMA 3R inlet.

kellemsgrip.jpg
 
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If it wasn't for running that cord through the window, I wouldn't mind that too much. At least the HO isn't looking for that cord when it comes time to use it.

However, I do think the outbuilding should be on it's own breaker, so it can be turned off to reduce the load on the generator.
 
That is good Marc I like, but here we do the same thing and what we do is go through the wall and go outside and set a male receptacle in a weather proof box. Then when they set the generator up and fire it up they plug their cord into it and rock and roll. no need to have window open and let in cold air or exhaust fumes..here the power goes out for week at a time in some areas.. ice storms are good for that with over head lines.
 
mdshunk said:
It is interesting to note that the Kellems type cord connector that was used in the 4-square was probably halfway to the cost of a proper NEMA 3R inlet.
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I was thinking more along the lines of plugging a slightly larger generator, hardwired with ATS, piped into the propane tank...:smile:
 
480sparky said:
I was thinking more along the lines of plugging a slightly larger generator, hardwired with ATS, piped into the propane tank...:smile:
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I figured.

Oddly, I did spot what looked like a perfectly good 12 or 15kw PTO generator for the tractor in the equipment shed. Not shure what the scoop is there. Maybe it doesn't work.
 
mdshunk said:
I figured.

Oddly, I did spot what looked like a perfectly good 12 or 15kw PTO generator for the tractor in the equipment shed. Not shure what the scoop is there. Maybe it doesn't work.
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Hmmm. my eyes must be bad.... I can't seem to find those in the pix.
 
480sparky said:
Hmmm. my eyes must be bad.... I can't seem to find those in the pix.
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Wise guy! :grin:

They intend to use a brand spanking new Honda generator for the rig in the pics.

I find that most PTO generators use an Anderson type connector anyhow.
 
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