GF indicator lights for delta xfmr secondary

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wasabivan

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Are Ground fault indicator lights Required on a transformer Secondary if its ungrounded delta? I back fed a "y" to delta transformer to boost voltage from 240 3ph to 480 3ph. so now my delta primary is actually the secondary and I now have no grounding point. the AHJ says that since I have no grounded conductor there is no way to facilitate the overcurrent device if a phase ever goes to ground. he says that there could be voltage to ground which would be hazardous especially at 480v, and so he has instructed me to install a ground fault indicator device of some sort. I called my Dad who's a retired Navy electrician as well as a plant supervisor electrican. he said that these indicator light systems are used on every Navy ship and that he had seen them installed in the Lumber mill and fruit packing plants he worked in The problem is that the tech guys on Cutler Hammers tech line didnt have a clue what I was refering too. so they transfered me to a controls guy who emailed me a set of drawings using current sensing relays to turn on a light in a ground fault situation. then while researching phase converters i ran into the same thing, noticing that the secondary on a phase converter is ungrounded delta. the tech guy from the phase converter company said my AHJ was nuts. that ungrounded deltas are all over the place without this ground fault indicator thing.
any comments would be much appreciated especially if you have documentation to show my AHJ who by the way I highly respect.
 
iwire said:
BTW, you can make a simple Gound fault indicating system yourself with lamps.

Having a hard time visualizing this. Can you explain it further? Is it the thing where there are three dimly lit lights and when there is a fault one goes bright and the others go out?
 
jerm said:
Is it the thing where there are three dimly lit lights and when there is a fault one goes bright and the others go out?

Yeah, I am trying to find an on line diagram, I think the American Electricians Handbook has it but I can't find that right now.

You have 3 lamps with one side of each connected to ground, the other side of each lamp goes to each of the phases.

When you get a ground fault on a phase that lamp goes out.

Often two lamps are used in series on each phase, that may be the only way to do it with 480 volt.


Personally I would just make it a corner grounded delta system and forget the lights.
 
edit - removed install details: bob already got them.

However, I do have a different opinion: I never liked corner grounded delta. Faults occur more often. And a lot more equipment gets burned up when they do. But you do have to do the maintenance when the GF lights show a fault or you are no better off than if you were corner grounded. I'd go with the GF indicators - Cheap - easy, they work.

Transformered 480V pilots are available from all of the major mfgs. Check a SQD catalog. I probably wouldn't try led xfm 480V pilots. They might work, but I don't know how they respond to low voltage. Use standard incandescent, bigger the better. They don't ever burn out, they are running at 58% voltage

carl
 
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jerm said:
Having a hard time visualizing this. Can you explain it further? Is it the thing where there are three dimly lit lights and when there is a fault one goes bright and the others go out?

This is explained in another thread on "corner grounded delta" that's currently on page 1 this forum.

The other two lamps burn brighter than before and the lamp on the faulted phase goes out.

You have to used lamps rated for at least the L-L voltage or they will burn out instead of burning bright under a fault condition.
 
coulter said:
But you do have to do the maintenance when the GF lights show a fault or you are no better off than if you were corner grounded. I'd go with the GF indicators - Cheap - easy, they work.

That is the issue I see, if conditions of maintenance are not in place including people who are accustomed to ungrounded systems I think you will do better with corner grounded.

I do agree that with the right conditions ungrounded would be a better choice.
 
iwire said:
That is the issue I see, if conditions of maintenance are not in place including people who are accustomed to ungrounded systems I think you will do better with corner grounded. ...
I don't see that. If the ungrounded system is installed per code, that just isn't a problem.

carl
 
coulter said:
I don't see that. If the ungrounded system is installed per code, that just isn't a problem.l

I don't understand what you mean. :confused:

If no one is there to see the light, or they do not know or care about what it means I think there is an issue.
 
Thanks for all the input.
I think the pervasive feeling is that corner grounding is problemmatic. why im not sure.
I was told to get 3-480v transformered pilot lights and hook them up each phase to phase. a-b, b-c, c-a.
Thanks Coulter, i was thinking of using LED's, good point to consider.
if one phase goes to ground then that light will be dimmer than the other two.
Thanks Baumer,
 
iwire said:
I don't understand what you mean. :confused:

If no one is there to see the light, or they do not know or care about what it means I think there is an issue.
Whoops, I didn't mean for that to be a coded message:cool:

250.21.3, particularly 250.21.3.b, "The conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation."

Then, of course, 70b and OSHA 1910(?), give the definitions of "qualified". Having a journeyman's ticket does not necessarily make one qualified.

So if the installation is per code, then the right people are on-site.

As for no one checking the lights, having a grounded phase is no worse that if one started with a grounded system.

carl
 
wasabivan said:
Thanks for all the input.
I think the pervasive feeling is that corner grounding is problemmatic. why im not sure.
I was told to get 3-480v transformered pilot lights and hook them up each phase to phase. a-b, b-c, c-a.
Thanks Coulter, i was thinking of using LED's, good point to consider.
if one phase goes to ground then that light will be dimmer than the other two.
Thanks Baumer,

You wire them A-light-Ground, B-light-Ground, and C-light-Ground

When one phase become grounded or is "ground faulted" the lights on the other 2 phases will burn brighter than before and the ground phase lamp will be out, not dim.

As explained in the corner grounded delta thread you have no reference to ground so your phase to ground reading will be unpredictable under normal conditions but likely lower than 480V. You are "capacitively coupled" to the earth only. You could read anywhere from probably less than 100V to close to 480V or maybe even higher. Read the other thread for more info.

I have never worked on a 480V ungrounded delta system but I have plenty of experience with the 240V variety.
 
I see what you where saying now about 'to code'. :smile:

coulter said:
having a grounded phase is no worse that if one started with a grounded system.

I will agree it may be no worse, but IMO it can be worse.

The first fault is not likely to be a bolted fault, when the next phase faults you will have a 'light show' at two locations.
 
wasabivan said:
I was told to get 3-480v transformered pilot lights and hook them up each phase to phase. a-b, b-c, c-a.

if one phase goes to ground then that light will be dimmer than the other two.
You can see now why this wouldn't work. Without a ground reference, the bulbs won't see any change if a phase becomes grounded. The three bulbs should be connected as a grounded-neutral Y.
 
iwire said:
... The first fault is not likely to be a bolted fault, when the next phase faults you will have a 'light show' at two locations.
That's true, and then there is an issue with restriking ground faults with the ungrounded system. All off the ungrounded delta systems I have put in were dedicated feeders to meet the equipment mfg specs, and I kept them short.

carl
 
LarryFine said:
You can see now why this wouldn't work. Without a ground reference, the bulbs won't see any change if a phase becomes grounded. The three bulbs should be connected as a grounded-neutral Y.

was-
Larry and bb are dead on. Connecting the lights phase to phase does not make a ground detector. Better go back and talk to who ever is doing the "telling". They need a little help.

carl
 
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