GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

[jimwalker]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Massachusetts requires them acording to Bob.No im sure few pull them anywhere.I sure wouldnt.Go ahead take me to court ,since its criminal i want a jury trial.

 

[growler]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

One of the important things that I have noticed by reading this forum is how much the rules change from one area to another. I don't pull permits for small jobs and I don't think anyone else does( in this area ). I see electrical contractors do whole basements without permits. I try to permit if the job is worth the effort. If a contractor here permitted everything he would soon be out of business so he might as well through his license away. That said, if I were in a different part of the country where the rules are different I think I would have to permit and pass the savings on to the customer.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Massachusetts requires them acording to Bob..

Here is part of the law.

GENERAL LAWS OF MASSACHUSETTS
PART I.
ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT

TITLE XX.
PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER

CHAPTER 143. INSPECTION AND REGULATION OF, AND LICENSES FOR, BUILDINGS, ELEVATORS AND CINEMATOGRAPHS

INSPECTION OF BUILDINGS
Chapter 143: Section 3L Regulations relative to electrical wiring and fixtures; notice of electrical installation

No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector. Any person failing to give such notice shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars. This section shall be enforced by the inspector of wires within his jurisdiction and the state examiners of electricians

Now you are going to say replacements are not installs and I can see that argument.

But consider this, many cities and towns here require us to pull a maintenance permit for our regular customers, this permit is only good for replacement and troubleshooting work. Any new work requires another permit.

Now, do people break these rules? Yes.

Do some always get away with it? Yes.

Do some people get caught and then racked over the coals to be taught a lesson? Yes.

XXXXX of Medford: The Board entered into a consent agreement with XXXXX, requiring a ten-year revocation of his Master electrician license and a three-year stayed suspension of his Journeyman electrician license. XXXX violated the conditions of a March 1998 consent agreement by failing to notify the local Inspector of Wires prior to performing electrical work, allowing more than one apprentice to be under the supervision of a Journeyman electrician and failing to appear for a scheduled appointment or provide written estimates to his customers, a violation of Board regulations.

You can see this in full here

The loss of his masters for 10 years means he is limited to either working for someone or running a shop with just himself and one apprentice.


I wonder if he thinks it was worth the money he saved?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Well Bob them kinda laws were made by the people that got elected.Not thinking i would want to live there. But it did say hired.That leaves some loopholes.Guess its up to you what risks you will take to keep your family fed.And if they really try for 100% compliance then fine i would pull the permit.But they better be setting up sting operations to catch unlicensed handymen and non permitted jobs.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Well Bob them kinda laws were made by the people that got elected.Not thinking i would want to live there.

Fair enough.

But then again if your looking for higher wages living in a State that requires licensing and inspections might be the way to go.

[ August 20, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

And the higher wages would be needed to offset costs like this.I always figured what i work for is too feed my family and live in a nice home.It is nice not to be cold and have nice beaches to go to.Have managed to have a paid for home when my wife was only 17.Yes could use more pay but not at the price of being cold and working in the snow.After paying the higher taxes and heating bills of up north no thanks.I have been in Florida since 73 ,that is something many have to wait for till they are 65

[ August 20, 2005, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jeff43222]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Glad state law here says that "minor repair work" such as changing out a receptacle doesn't require a permit. It's one of the few things that doesn't require a permit. I hold a local license in another state, and the chief inspector there told me things work the same way in that city.

Overall, though, permits are a good idea. I encounter way too much hack work on a regular basis, most of which would probably have been caught/corrected if whoever installed it followed the law.

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by iwire:
Are you an electrician?

In MA if you own a single family home you may do wiring in it, but you must pull a permit

Bob,

In MA, permits are for licensed electricians only. A homeowner may perform wiring in an owner occupied single or 2 family home. There have been 3 attorney general rulings as to this. In our town we will not issue permits to homeowners. I've had conversations with the current and former executive secretary of the board in regards to this situation.

Thanks,

John

John

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Another note on the way MA laws are worded. The state board of examiners has ruled that if a person is not installing wiring for hire (does a job for free) then a permit is not required.

A case in a local town was brought to the board where an electrician did a job for a church for free. He proved that he was not being compensated or using it for any tax deductions, etc. State board of examiners ruled that a permit was not required.

I do not believe that that was the intent of MGL 143 when it was written, but that is the effect. There are several new proposals in the statehouse for rewrites of section 143.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by j_erickson:

Originally posted by iwire:
Are you an electrician?

In MA if you own a single family home you may do wiring in it, but you must pull a permit

Bob,

In MA, permits are for licensed electricians only. A homeowner may perform wiring in an owner occupied single or 2 family home. There have been 3 attorney general rulings as to this. In our town we will not issue permits to homeowners. I've had conversations with the current and former executive secretary of the board in regards to this situation.

Thanks,

John

John

John thank you for the info.

Where exactly is the part about homeowners covered in the law?

I have looked and could never find it.

I got my info about the homeowner permits from what I consider a fairly reliable source but have always wanted to see the written rules first hand.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

I also remember my Dad pulling an electrical permit as a homeowner when we built an addition.

 

[roger]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Jim,

I have been in Florida since 73 ,that is something many have to wait for till they are 65

and it is also something many of us native Floridians leave.

The beaches are crowded, there is more concrete by the hour, you're drinking, cooking, and showering in your neighbors toilet water, the roads can't handle the traffic, you complain about wages, etc... :roll:

I'll take the mild winters we have in this part of the country, and the spring water I have at my house.

I do own acreage in North FL, which is a different world from area though.


Roger

[ August 20, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Bob,

The info regarding hommeowners being allowed to "do their own work" comes from the 3 attorney general rulings in 3 different court cases. I received this info from Jim Fahey, the former executive secretary of the board of examiners. So, nowhere does it explicitely state " a homeowner can do their own wiring". Jim Fahey also told me that the uniform state permit application is for licensed electricians, so it really doesn't apply to homeowners. I've also spoken with Rich Fredette about this, and he has said the same thing. There are several bills in legislature for rewriting of MGL143 which would change things. Essentially they are allowed to perform their own wiring, and we are not supposed to issue them a wiring permit or inspect their work. Still has to comply with Mass. Electrical Code. But nobody's inspecting it.

However, many municipalities DO issue electrical permits to homeowners. I believe that this is in error. My father is an inspector in a town where they do this. The building commissioner there believes it to be ok so he issues these permits.

In my town, if a homeowner wants to do their own work and a building permit is required, they are in luck. Massachusetts State Building Code references Massachusetts Electrical Code. So wiring essentially falls under the building inspector. Since I am deputy electrical inspector and local building inspector (not commisioner) I do the building inspection and make sure that the wiring is code compliant as well.

John

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

John I am not trying to give you a hard time but I am confused.

How can the Attorney General make a ruling with out something written down in law?


Bob

 

[physis]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

This is interesting. I'm reading about how home owners aren't required to have a permit for electrical work that they either do themselves of is done without charge.

I'm seeing it as the home owner is being allowed the assumtion of risk.

Something that doesn't exist much anymore. It used to be when somebody did something stupid they have assumed whatever risk was associated with their actions and couldn't hold someone else civilly liable for damages resulting from their acts of stupidity.

Or to put it another way, the permit process is to help insure that electrical work, as a product, is reliable with regard to safty. Rather than being concerned with all electrical work everywhere.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Sam, electricians are not even required to pull a permit if they are not installing "For Hire" (I guess this means getting paid) . So essentially here in mass I can, as an electrician, wire my own house, with no permit required.

John as far as homeowner permits go do you know where I can find any written info on these rulings? Most inspectors I know will issue homeowner permits and do the required inspections that come along with the permit. I do know of one town that has pretty much the same info you mentioned and will not issue homeowner permits. When I run into the guy I might pick his brain about it.

[ August 20, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[infinity]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Here in New Jersey homeowners can file for building, electrical or plumbing permits for their own homes. They need zero experience to get a permit and many times have their friends or unlicensed tradesman do the work. This is perfectly legal here and happens all of the time. At least the work might get inspected if a permit is issued.

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by iwire:
John I am not trying to give you a hard time but I am confused.

How can the Attorney General make a ruling with out something written down in law?


Bob

Bob,

From what I understand, 3 cases have gone to court and the finding was that the attorney general made a judgement in regards to MGL 143 ruling in favor of the homeowner. You're right - AG did not make a ruling without a case. If you want to contact me, I have the e-mail from Jim Fahey somewhere in my files. It's very confusing, and I posted in a rush and probably left out some info. I pursued this because I didn't get it either. I do not have details of the cases, I just took Mr. Fahey at his word. I have also discussed it with Rich Fredette in person, the current executive secretary, who has affirmed the situation. I guess that the bottom line is that the specific wording of MGL 143 clearly states that an electrician for hire must apply for permit within 5 days but does not cover other scenarios. i.e. homeowners. When this was challenged in court, ruling was in favor of homeowner. Again, owner occupied 1-2 family. Probably not the original intent of the law, but the interpretation of the way it is written. As an inspector, I could take a homeowner in my jurisdiction to court for performing his own wiring, and would lose.

Again, there are several rewrites of 143 in legislation which would address this.

Thanks,

John

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by electricmanscott:


John as far as homeowner permits go do you know where I can find any written info on these rulings? Most inspectors I know will issue homeowner permits and do the required inspections that come along with the permit. I do know of one town that has pretty much the same info you mentioned and will not issue homeowner permits. When I run into the guy I might pick his brain about it.

Scott,

When I go to our "municipal electrical inspector's meetings" (monthly meeting of town inspectors with members of the state board) there is still some confusion. You will not find it written down. This situation (homeowner can do wiring) results from the decision in past court cases. I believe that if it went to court, the finding woild be that a permit can not be issued to a homeowner. I'll bet that someday there will be an insurance claim which will bring this to light.

 

[newt68]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Thank you for all your help, comments and all your votes of confidence. For those of you that think that a helper shouldn't or couldn't install a GFCI recepticle or breaker, I'd like to add that if one cannot do these things one cannot call himself/herself a helper at all. If this isn't the easiest thing in the electrical world to do then was is?
Thanks again, you have answered my question.