GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by newt68:
Thank you for all your help, comments and all your votes of confidence.

I asked if you where an electrician because of the forum rules.

* This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries.
Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

You where asking about swapping out breakers which can be dangerous.

Quite frankly the fact that you did not know the answer to your question or how to look it up suggests you are not a very experienced apprentice.

I assumed you where a DIY and to some extent you are.

 

[JohnE]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

One other interesting note from MA. We submit a uniform state electrical permit application. This is not a permit. Upon receiving our application, the municipality is supposed to issue you a permit. Something on paper. Some jurisdictions will say that the application becomes the permit, but the state says that is not ok. FWIW.

Also, I apologize for getting this thread off of it's original topic.

John

 

[growler]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

I have a question for you guys in MA. If you have to get a permit for every little thing you do, how many inspectors does it take to cover an area. Our county has about ten and some part time inspectors and they are always covered up. Do they let you know in advance the approximate time of the inspection. Here you can call on the morning of the inspection and get it down to a couple of hours on a good day. I'm not sure that we could get the customer to take off a second day of work for a GFCI receptacle.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Growler, the inspection process can be a complete pain in the *** . There is no correct answer so it seems. Some towns you have to mail the application to the inspectors house, some you call at home, some have office hours, some do inspections Tuesday and Thursday, the list goes on and on. For all the laws and rules we have here it is often a mess. What is supposed to happen by law for a permit to be issued is a sort of checklist. Fill out statewide uniform permit application.(Uniform permit apllication my rear) Provide proof of insurance including work mans comp or sign affidavit stating you are a sole proprietor and have no employees. Permit is issued. Notify the inspector in writing when you need rough and final inspection. Inspection complete. If violation found in your work inspector to notify you in writing citing violation and applicable code article. If hazard found in building inspector to notify property owner in writing.
In my experience most of the items listed never actually happen.

 

[growler]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Thanks Scott. I don't think that the electricians here know how good they have got it. Everyone likes to complain about the time it takes to get the permit and call the inspector. But in reality we can fax in the permit application and call for an inspection on an automated system. We can call the automated system for results and even hear the recorded voice of the inspector if there are any violations ( at our convenience). If there is a building permit the GC pay for electrical( I like that ). They set aside an hour in the morning and another in the evening when you can call and talk to the inspectors ( that helps ). The only thing that I wish they would add is a question and answer session with the inspectors ( one Saturday a month, 2 to 4 hr, not mandatory ). I talked to a contractor in a neighboring state and he said they had great results in eliminating the gray areas of the code this way. The contractor then understands the position of the AHJ. before doing the work in the field . But I'm not going to complain after hearing the problems that the rest of you face.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by growler:
We can call the automated system for results and even hear the recorded voice of the inspector if there are any violations ( at our convenience).

What a great idea.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by roger:
Jim,

I have been in Florida since 73 ,that is something many have to wait for till they are 65

and it is also something many of us native Floridians leave.

The beaches are crowded, there is more concrete by the hour, you're drinking, cooking, and showering in your neighbors toilet water, the roads can't handle the traffic, you complain about wages, etc...

[ August 21, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

 

[pierre]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

I read through this thread pretty quick, but I get the general idea of how some feel.

My take on this topic comes from two different angeles.
1. As a past Con (short for contractor ).

As a contractor, I thought I saw a lot of poor work, as an inspector I get to see a whole lot more of the crappy work that goes on (at least in the territory I work in).

I see a trend of worse work, not improving work that is being installed. Too many people who have no clue, but watch the shows on TV which makes it look easy.

So I totally believe in the permit required for work (not replacement, even though the unknowing replacing a mess will perpetuate the mess), as at least someone will get an eyeball on some of the scariest work imaginable.

Jim
You surprise me sometimes with some of your comments.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by pierre:
Jim
You surprise me sometimes with some of your comments.

I think Jim's comments are fantastic. Speaks his mind, says what he thinks and dosen't care who knows it. Well done Jim!

 

[pierre]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

I have no problems with anyone who wants to, or likes to speak his/her mind - I do it all the time.
What concerns me is when the rules to be followed are only okay if one likes them or not.
One of the hardest things a person can do is follow a rule (that all others have to follow), even if one does not believe in them. I know it is not easy, but I do it - Second ground rods to me are a waste of money and time, but I conform, as do most others.

That is all I was trying to convey.

 

[roger]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Pierre,

Originally posted by pierre:
I have no problems with anyone who wants to, or likes to speak his/her mind - I do it all the time.
What concerns me is when the rules to be followed are only okay if one likes them or not.
One of the hardest things a person can do is follow a rule (that all others have to follow), even if one does not believe in them. I know it is not easy, but I do it - Second ground rods to me are a waste of money and time, but I conform, as do most others.

That is all I was trying to convey.

well said, and I agree.


Jw,

We do agree on one thing my friend, we live in God?s part of the world and every one else lives some where else.

ain't it the truth.

Roger

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Bob , I'm not at all sure the home owner has to pull a permit.

I believe you are required to pull a permit in Mass if you are hired to preform electrical work. The Governing law falls under consumer protection not public health as it is with plumbing. Which is why you are required to have a license to preform plumbing in Mass.

I was given this information at a seminar a few years ago , at that time they were trying to change the law so that electrical work would also require a license , I think they were unsuccessful however.
I will look to see if I can find the law and post it if do.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

But they better be setting up sting operations to catch unlicensed handymen and non permitted jobs.

I can see it now.Inspector 007 hides behind the end cap of he aisle,he see`s mr.h/h`r purchasing a gfci receptacle da da da da da da dadaboom.He exits the county vehicle and spies in the windiow,oh my he`s installing a device

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Bob , I'm not at all sure the home owner has to pull a permit.

Yeah I have been getting that message.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Sorry Bob , I had not read every post.

I think it should require a license to preform electrical work , if for no other reason than , some day the house will be sold to someone else who has no Idea how dangerous the wiring is , ( JIM HERE IS WHERE A GOOD HOME INSPECTOR CAN HELP ) Faulty wiring kills too many people already. Even a faulty wired receptacle can burn a family to death .

Next time I'll read all the posts .

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
Sorry Bob , I had not read every post.

No need to be sorry, this is an issue that I have always believed one thing when it turns out I was misinformed.

 

[luke.stickney]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Maybe it's because I have never pulled a permit to change one GFCI. But here in San Francisco I have never pulled a permit less then $250. So you guys with the $25 permit cost, consider yourself lucky and pull all the permits you want to change those receptacles. As for me, with a permit cost of 25 times the cost of the GFCI, I'll pass. Anyway, most of the time if all I'm doing is changing out one receptacle, I'm not charging my customer for it anyway. So if I'm not making any money off it, why should the city, even if it is the law.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Well there you go Pierre. Luke said it all. Why should I do it even if it's the law. And they say the youth of today are the problem with society. :roll:

 

[roger]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Well there you go Pierre. Luke said it all. Why should I do it even if it's the law. And they say the youth of today are the problem with society. :roll:

Scott, are you trying to make us believe you're in that "youth of today" category?

Roger

 

[pierre]

Re: GFCI circuit breakers in service panels

Scott
I am not sure where you stand on this topic???


Remember one thing... if a person is willing to "break" a rule for one thing (regardless of how trivial it may seem to them), then all rules go by the wind and anarchy sets in... just a thought.

Like I have mentioned before, I see on a daily basis why there is a need for inspectors (of any kind). This does not make me happy, as a matter of fact, just the opposite.


All rules do not make sense...
In NY, motorcycle riders must wear helmuts, just across the border in Conn. motorcycle riders do not need to wear helmuts????