GFCI & heater problems

[Greg Swartz]

Last year, I installed some GFCIs and new circuits outside for some pond heaters.

I have gotten now 2 calls from the Homeowner stating the GFCIs are tripping again. About 3 times in 7 days. Doesn't matter which GFCIs they are plugged into.

Last call, I went out, tested the circuits, and showed him that everything was good. I have no doubt I will do so again this time, but a couple of questions:

1. How do I handle this. This is a good paying customer who has given me rave reviews and tried to get me work...

2. I don't think replacing the GFCIs will help, will it? A pond heater is nothing but a coil and a thermostat, right?

3. How many times do I keep going out?

Greg

 

[mdshunk]

What was the leakage current you measured from the heaters?


I think I know the answer already. If your answer is, "I don't know, I didn't measure it", then you only did half your job. Measure and document the leakage current from each tank heater and show the customer the results. Explain that the GFCI's are tripping because they are supposed to, and the only repair is new heaters.

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

infrequent and intermittent problems

infrequent and intermittent problems

Does Dranetz, or anyone else, make data recorders that babysit the device and then dump the waveforms just prior to the fault? You'd "loan" it to the customer.
It might pay for itself quickly in not having callbacks, and in customer satisfaction and favorable impressions as to your thoroughness, and in your making "his" problem "your" problem.

 

[Chamuit]

A simple demonstration.

A simple demonstration.

The simplest way to demonstrate and confirm that it is the heaters causing the problem is to take a cord and plug the heaters into another GFI outlet seperate from the ones you installed. When that other GFI trips you will have demonstrated that the heaters are the cause and not your circuit(s).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Greg I had a similar situation -- I changed the GFCI recep. but told them that the problem was in the pond pump. They eventually replaced the pump and Voila-- it worked fine. Six months later same problem- this time I told them try a new pump first- Bingo again. Some of the equipment being sold for ponds is not very good. They need to step up the quality.

 

[wptski]

Does Dranetz, or anyone else, make data recorders that babysit the device and then dump the waveforms just prior to the fault? You'd "loan" it to the customer.
It might pay for itself quickly in not having callbacks, and in customer satisfaction and favorable impressions as to your thoroughness, and in your making "his" problem "your" problem.

A scope set up to trigger on a single shot with the "proper" range current probe would do.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Half my job...

Half my job...

What was the leakage current you measured from the heaters?


I think I know the answer already. If your answer is, "I don't know, I didn't measure it", then you only did half your job. Measure and document the leakage current from each tank heater and show the customer the results. Explain that the GFCI's are tripping because they are supposed to, and the only repair is new heaters.

I will check it, but really, Marc, do you think I ONLY did half my job?

I tell customers all the time that if I did not provide something, I am not responsible for it... I didn't provide the heaters, and infact, they were not even purchased when the electrical work was done.

My going out to check the GFCIs the first time was testament to my service and only showed the HO that I am there for the long haul.

I understand that there were other things I could have done, but now we are getting into a whole scenario...
nonetheless, he is a repeat customer, who thinks highly of my company...

Greg

 

[iwire]

You should send Marc a PM. :smile:

 

[mdshunk]

I will check it, but really, Marc, do you think I ONLY did half my job?

Yes, indeed. If you didn't measure the leakage current of the connected appliance, how would you even know whether you were dealing with a defective GFCI or a defective appliance? A guess? Trial and error? Professionals test and confirm for proof. "Show me the numbers", I say. Anything else is just an educated guess or troubleshooting by elimination, both of which are inefficient.

 

[chris kennedy]

You should send Marc a PM. :smile:

Good luck.

 

[iwire]

Good luck.

I know :grin:

 

[Greg Swartz]

Sorry guys...

Sorry guys...

Sorry guys, I didn't know that was a PM situation...

This is an open forum, we discuss things all the time...

Marc has an opinion and so do I. As long as it does not get into flaming or worse, I do not see the need for such a requirement.

Nonetheless, Marc did answer my question. And explained his position quite well...

I am NOT offended.
Greg

 

[iwire]

Greg I was joking around don't worry about it.

 

[quogueelectric]

Last year, I installed some GFCIs and new circuits outside for some pond heaters.

I have gotten now 2 calls from the Homeowner stating the GFCIs are tripping again. About 3 times in 7 days. Doesn't matter which GFCIs they are plugged into.

Last call, I went out, tested the circuits, and showed him that everything was good. I have no doubt I will do so again this time, but a couple of questions:

1. How do I handle this. This is a good paying customer who has given me rave reviews and tried to get me work...

2. I don't think replacing the GFCIs will help, will it? A pond heater is nothing but a coil and a thermostat, right?

3. How many times do I keep going out?

Greg

I am going to asume that these receptacles are in some sort of fs box with a weatherproof in use cover. Most of the time where this type of problem occurs is from water getting into the boxes and filling them up. Did you check to see that it was dry in the receptacle boxes?? If they are getting wet drill a small drainage hole in the bottom of the box and try to seal the top better.

 

[mdshunk]

I have a little headroom in the PM box now. Who decided on the absurd 1000 message limit in the PM box? That's not enough. Unless that changes, I'm going to take my ball and go home. :grin:

 

[peter d]

Who decided on the absurd 1000 message limit in the PM box? That's not enough. Unless that changes, I'm going to take my ball and go home. :grin:

Don't let the door hit you in the keester on the way out.

 

[Buck Parrish]

That marc " IS ALL RIGHT "
I don't care what the every body says.

 

[LarryFine]

If they are getting wet drill a small drainage hole in the bottom of the box and try to seal the top better.

I drill two 1/8" holes in the bottom of just about everything I install outdoors, even LB's.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I drill two 1/8" holes in the bottom of just about everything I install outdoors, even LB's.

I would do that also but I am afraid my drill will hit the energized wires in the LB.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

What was the leakage current you measured from the heaters?


I think I know the answer already. If your answer is, "I don't know, I didn't measure it", then you only did half your job. Measure and document the leakage current from each tank heater and show the customer the results. Explain that the GFCI's are tripping because they are supposed to, and the only repair is new heaters.

Marc, how do you measure the leakage current ? I hate to sound stuipd but I have always gone out checked the gfci / replaced it and told the customer it is a problem with the equipment pluged into the GFCI