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GFCI INTERMITTENT TRIP

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Jpflex

Electrician big leagues
Location
Victorville
Occupation
Electrician commercial and residential
Only the imbalance of the current flowing through the GFCI is measured.

The current of the branch circuit feeding multiple pigtailed devices could be imbalanced.
Yes but the current of the branch circuit feeding multiple pigtailed devices is supplied from line side of GFCI or top receptacle rather than bottom load side receptacle of GFCI. Does top GFCI not check for imbalance between its hot wire and neutral wire connections?
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Yes but the current of the branch circuit feeding multiple pigtailed devices is supplied from line side of GFCI or top receptacle rather than bottom load side receptacle of GFCI. Does top GFCI not check for imbalance between its hot wire and neutral wire connections?
Line side of the device will only feed the device that's why it was mentioned before.
 

AdamTeeScott

Member
Location
Louisville, KY
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Imagine taking the GFCI out and violating NEC code?
Let's pause on this real quick: IF this was an issue in a dwelling unit, then I would agree with @ptonsparky since 210.8(a)(6) specifies that a GFCI must be installed in "Kitchens - where receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces". Since the fridge is not on the countertop, and 422.5(a) does not require a fridge to have GFCI protection, I would serve it first with a non-GFCI receptacle, then at the next kitchen circuit, start your GFCI protection. This is based on 2017 and 2020 codes. But since this is a non-dwelling environment, code wording forces your hand here. Not helping your situation, but should this happen to someone in a dwelling unit, I've done it this way in the past and inspectors have accepted it.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Let's pause on this real quick: IF this was an issue in a dwelling unit, then I would agree with @ptonsparky since 210.8(a)(6) specifies that a GFCI must be installed in "Kitchens - where receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces". Since the fridge is not on the countertop, and 422.5(a) does not require a fridge to have GFCI protection, I would serve it first with a non-GFCI receptacle, then at the next kitchen circuit, start your GFCI protection. This is based on 2017 and 2020 codes. But since this is a non-dwelling environment, code wording forces your hand here. Not helping your situation, but should this happen to someone in a dwelling unit, I've done it this way in the past and inspectors have accepted it.
GFCI protection of the refrigerator receptacle in a dwelling unit is often triggered by list item 7.
Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink

The 2023 code requires all receptacles in a dwelling unit kitchen supplied by a branch circuit that is 150 volts or less to ground to have GFCI protection.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
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EC - retired
Yes but the current of the branch circuit feeding multiple pigtailed devices is supplied from line side of GFCI or top receptacle rather than bottom load side receptacle of GFCI. Does top GFCI not check for imbalance between its hot wire and neutral wire connections?
How far back towards the utility transformer do you think it should monitor?
 

ruxton.stanislaw

Senior Member
Location
Arkansas
Occupation
Laboratory Engineer
How does this work?

transformers normally step up or step down voltage but if voltage available is only secondary 120v how would this work and how would this isolation system work since the GFCI would appear to still trip if there were an imbalance current on line and neutral?
If the secondary of the isolation transformer that the fridge is connected to is galvanically isolated from the GFCI (i.e. not an autotransformer), current leaking to the chassis of the fridge would be balanced at the secondary coil of the isolation transformer.
 

Jpflex

Electrician big leagues
Location
Victorville
Occupation
Electrician commercial and residential
It doesn't go backwards. In practice and in theory. It measure at the line side of the device what is going through the face and load side. If there is a load before the cts never know anything is different.
Ok thanks will look into this more
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
How does this work?

transformers normally step up or step down voltage but if voltage available is only secondary 120v how would this work and how would this isolation system work since the GFCI would appear to still trip if there were an imbalance current on line and neutral?

Transformer primary and secondary circuits are electrically isolated from one another, leakage on secondary will not be detected by a GFCI on the primary circuit. Any secondary side leakage is trying to get back to the other secondary terminal and not to a primary side component.
Very interesting info you have. I was not aware that cloth washers may have an NC isolation switch that opens when cover is in place.

Does this mean there is no EGC bonding between motor and appliance frame while motor is in operation?

There was a time when I used to take apart washers and driers and study their diagrams. I came across one that apparently transformed AC signal into DC again into what the manual called SIMULATED AC. On the scope, the voltage on the field windings looked like square wave version of a standard sinusoidal ac wave form with voltage having positive and negative polarity.

Has anyone come across this or know more about this?
Yes, that interrupts leakage current path that is a result of high frequencies produced by these drives. My guess is by design they figure that motor frame is shielded by the appliance outer shell, when you take the cover off you expose it, so they close the switch and bond that motor frame, which will allow the leakage to have a current path.

And what you described there is exactly the concept of how a variable frequency drive typically operates, converts AC into DC then via semiconductors makes that back into a simulated AC wave form that usually isn't pure sinusoidal but is good enough for typical AC induction motor to function on it, varying that "frequency" along with applying correct corresponding voltage allows it to vary output speed of motor. The high frequency I mentioned isn't the fundamental output frequency of 0-60 Hz but rather the carrier frequency that is developed in the process,

Perhaps but are you allowed to feed the line side of GFCI and put another set of wires on same line side terminals to power other outlets? It doesn’t seem like you shouldn’t in NEC but wouldn’t GFCI still trip since GFCI is monitoring line and neutral current on both receptacles top or bottom?
The GFCI only monitors what passes through it, connecting an incoming line and an outgoing line to only the "line" terminals doesn't pass any current through the GFCI, it just uses the line terminals as a splice point. One may do this if they want/need GFCI protection only on that one receptacle, anything else on the circuit is not GFCI protected.
 
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