GFCI Receptacle for garbage disposal

[Strathead]

The new wording in 210.8 NEC 2018 states that when determining distance for GFCI's it is "would follow without ... passing through a door. My first thought is that if the receptacle has to pass through a door, then a GFCI isn't required on the other side of the door. But I think I have read here where it is believed to be required. Can we discuss the reasoning? I can see where one might state, a cabinet door isn't a "door" in this case, for example.

 

[jap]

The new wording in 210.8 NEC 2018 states that when determining distance for GFCI's it is "would follow without ... passing through a door. My first thought is that if the receptacle has to pass through a door, then a GFCI isn't required on the other side of the door. But I think I have read here where it is believed to be required. Can we discuss the reasoning? I can see where one might state, a cabinet door isn't a "door" in this case, for example.

If a cabinet door is not a door, then what is it?


JAP>

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see how that can be clearer. IMO, the receptacle under the sink does not need to be gfci protected assuming this is a dwelling.

For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.

Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m
(6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink

 

[infinity]

I don't see how that can be clearer. IMO, the receptacle under the sink does not need to be gfci protected assuming this is a dwelling.

I agree. I would also guess that the specific wording in the NEC that mentions the word door is actually referencing a cabinet door.

 

[LarryFine]

If a cabinet door is not a door, then what is it?

Ajar. At least in my house, it is.

 

[jap]

Ajar. At least in my house, it is.

Mine's usually always shut, except for the brief moments when we open it to get the dishwashing liquid out.

I let my wife do that while I stand guard next to the non-gfi garbage disposal receptacle, just in case some sneaky B_ _ T _ _ D tries to plug something in when we aren't looking.


JAP>

 

[jap]

I have my boy watch the disposal switch during this period of time also.

Just in case they happen to get by me to plug something in,,, they dang sure aint gonna get by him to flip the switch on.


JAP>

 

[Strathead]

Thank you all I read an old thread where there was much more controversy about it. That wording is not in the 2014 code book. We are still under that one. Do you think an inspector would be wrong to fail you under that code? I think they would be within their rights.

 

[kwired]

Thank you all I read an old thread where there was much more controversy about it. That wording is not in the 2014 code book. We are still under that one. Do you think an inspector would be wrong to fail you under that code? I think they would be within their rights.

I think that is exactly why the change was made, as written before anything that was within six feet was up to AHJ how they want to enforce it, now they are telling you how to measure that six feet. In extreme case one could have said that bedroom receptacle on the other side of the wall was within six feet of the sink and required GFCI protection, reality is if the wall is finished and you don't pass any cord through the wall in any way you may need at least 25 feet of cord to reach from the receptacle to the sink.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The intent of the 2017 language was that a cabinet door is not a door, but that is not what the words say. The 2020 will remove the words door and doorway from that section to make it clear that receptacles under the cabinet that are within 6' from the sink will require GFCI protection. This change will also require GFCI protection in some unusual locations. For example in my master bedroom the master bath sink is located such that one of the bedroom wall receptacles would require GFCI protection if the 2020 language was applied.

 

[kwired]

The intent of the 2017 language was that a cabinet door is not a door, but that is not what the words say. The 2020 will remove the words door and doorway from that section to make it clear that receptacles under the cabinet that are within 6' from the sink will require GFCI protection. This change will also require GFCI protection in some unusual locations. For example in my master bedroom the master bath sink is located such that one of the bedroom wall receptacles would require GFCI protection if the 2020 language was applied.

So what is their intent? If it is based on "what if" then why not GFCI protection of everything? That still won't prevent all electrocutions but will get quite a few of them.

 

[Strathead]

I must admit that it is nice to ask a question that ends up having multiple answers so I don't feel like it was a stupid question. For once.

 

[jap]

The intent of the 2017 language was that a cabinet door is not a door, but that is not what the words say. The 2020 will remove the words door and doorway from that section to make it clear that receptacles under the cabinet that are within 6' from the sink will require GFCI protection. This change will also require GFCI protection in some unusual locations. For example in my master bedroom the master bath sink is located such that one of the bedroom wall receptacles would require GFCI protection if the 2020 language was applied.

Electricians disagreeing on whether a cabinet door is not actually a door, pulling 6' strings from the receptacle to the sink for measurements trying to decide whether or not a GFI is required, then disagreeing on exactly how that measurement should be taken.

It's almost comical.

I'm glad our fathers and forefathers didn't waste this much time on such small matters because nothing would have ever gotten accomplished.

Someone make a rule that works and lets roll with it.

This is not that difficult.


JAP>

 

[Strathead]

Electricians disagreeing on whether a cabinet door is not actually a door, pulling 6' strings from the receptacle to the sink for measurements trying to decide whether or not a GFI is required, then disagreeing on exactly how that measurement should be taken.

It's almost comical.

I'm glad our fathers and forefathers didn't waste this much time on such small matters because nothing would have ever gotten accomplished.

Someone make a rule that works and lets roll with it.

This is not that difficult.


JAP>

Frankly, it is that difficult. Remember when a disconnect had to be within sight. 100 yards across a football field is within sight, they had to define it better. The code requires a service disconnect nearest the point of entrance. Even within a 50 mile radius of my house that distance is everywhere from 10 feet to 3 feet

 

[ramsy]

...The 2020 will remove the words door and doorway from that section to make it clear that receptacles under the cabinet that are within 6' from the sink will require GFCI protection..

"Readily Accessible" currently prohibits "to climb over or under, to remove obstacles"
See first paragraph of 210.8 and 210.12

 

[david]

The new wording in 210.8 NEC 2018 states that when determining distance for GFCI's it is "would follow without ... passing through a door. My first thought is that if the receptacle has to pass through a door, then a GFCI isn't required on the other side of the door. But I think I have read here where it is believed to be required. Can we discuss the reasoning? I can see where one might state, a cabinet door isn't a "door" in this case, for example.

For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.

680.22
(4) GFCI Protection. All 15- and 20-ampere, single-phase, 125-volt receptacles located within 6.0 m (20 ft) of the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

(5) Measurements. In determining the dimensions in this section addressing receptacle spacings, the distance to be measured shall be the shortest path the supply cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, doorway with hinged or sliding door, window opening, or other effective permanent barrier.

If there was a rec in a cabinet say 7 ft from a pool i would require it to have ground fault protection

 

[lordofthisworld]

The new wording in 210.8 NEC 2018 states that when determining distance for GFCI's it is "would follow without ... passing through a door. My first thought is that if the receptacle has to pass through a door, then a GFCI isn't required on the other side of the door. But I think I have read here where it is believed to be required. Can we discuss the reasoning? I can see where one might state, a cabinet door isn't a "door" in this case, for example.

Is the disposal Recept within 6’ of the edge of the sink?

 

[kwired]

For the purposes of this section, when determining distance
from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest
path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle
would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed
barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.

680.22
(4) GFCI Protection. All 15- and 20-ampere, single-phase, 125-volt receptacles located within 6.0 m (20 ft) of the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

(5) Measurements. In determining the dimensions in this section addressing receptacle spacings, the distance to be measured shall be the shortest path the supply cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, doorway with hinged or sliding door, window opening, or other effective permanent barrier.

If there was a rec in a cabinet say 7 ft from a pool i would require it to have ground fault protection

What if it is on other side of a wall, effectively in another "room" than what the pool is in? Certainly wouldn't hurt to GFCI protect it in most cases, but may not be all that necessary.

Problem with making rules is all the "what if's" that didn't come up initially when making the rule.

Is the disposal Recept within 6’ of the edge of the sink?

When it comes to a direct line regardless of obstacles, usually they are, the topic of discussion is how to measure that distance when there is obstacles, openings, etc.

 

[LarryFine]

Problem with making rules is all the "what if's" that didn't come up initially when making the rule.

That's what code compliance is all about: making the general fit the specific.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

"Readily Accessible" currently prohibits "to climb over or under, to remove obstacles"
See first paragraph of 210.8 and 210.12

That has nothing to do with the requirement that the receptacle have GFCI protection. It just says you can't use a GFCI receptacle in that location to provide the required protection.