GFCI Receptacle for garbage disposal

ramsy

Senior Member
That has nothing to do with the requirement that the receptacle have GFCI protection. It just says you can't use a GFCI receptacle in that location to provide the required protection.
Master's won't let monkeys use 2-pole GCFI's for MWBC's under sinks, but they might use 1-pole breaker for both dishwasher / disposer, and cap off extra leg in box.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Given all the recent torriod nec inclusions, I'm waiting for the decending ma (main, submains, ocpd's) model to debut here

~RJ~
 

david

Senior Member
What if it is on other side of a wall, effectively in another "room" than what the pool is in? Certainly wouldn't hurt to GFCI protect it in most cases, but may not be all that necessary.

Problem with making rules is all the "what if's" that didn't come up initially when making the rule.

When it comes to a direct line regardless of obstacles, usually they are, the topic of discussion is how to measure that distance when there is obstacles, openings, etc.
Doorway seems to have an understood meaning in the building trades the difference in the two sections

680 specifies a doorway with a hinged or sliding door (barrier) to separate the swimming pool area from the room in your post

My point is most would require, if a rec was in a cabinet in the swimming pool area to have GFCI protection. The wording is the same in both sections. As written the cabinet door does not create a separation that would be considered a barrier.

I agree if the code intends to exempt the rec in a cabinet it needs to be clear
 

kwired

Electron manager
Doorway seems to have an understood meaning in the building trades the difference in the two sections

680 specifies a doorway with a hinged or sliding door (barrier) to separate the swimming pool area from the room in your post

My point is most would require, if a rec was in a cabinet in the swimming pool area to have GFCI protection. The wording is the same in both sections. As written the cabinet door does not create a separation that would be considered a barrier.

I agree if the code intends to exempt the rec in a cabinet it needs to be clear
I did not check out what is in 680 but as far as 210.8 goes, 2017 they added wording that I thought was clear the cabinet door is such a barrier. Now it is mentioned that will go away again. Must have been a failed attempt at whatever they were trying to get out of the first time around?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Master's won't let monkeys use 2-pole GCFI's for MWBC's under sinks, but they might use 1-pole breaker for both dishwasher / disposer, and cap off extra leg in box.
Why? It is either GFCI protected or it is not, why does it matter if it is single pole, two pole or even three pole?
 

ramsy

Senior Member
Why? It is either GFCI protected or it is not, why does it matter if it is single pole, two pole or even three pole?
Maybe it's just me. Never found one in resi fuse box in last 10 years.
How many 2-pole resets have you installed, and where, much less 3-pole?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Doorway seems to have an understood meaning in the building trades the difference in the two sections

680 specifies a doorway with a hinged or sliding door (barrier) to separate the swimming pool area from the room in your post

My point is most would require, if a rec was in a cabinet in the swimming pool area to have GFCI protection. The wording is the same in both sections. As written the cabinet door does not create a separation that would be considered a barrier.

I agree if the code intends to exempt the rec in a cabinet it needs to be clear
Didn't the '17 focus on accessibility of gfci's??? ~RJ~
 

david

Senior Member
Didn't the '17 focus on accessibility of gfci's??? ~RJ~
Not sure how the test/ reset being accessible effects anything as far as GFCI protection of a Rec. goes.

"Readily Accessible" currently prohibits "to climb over or under, to remove obstacles"
See first paragraph of 210.8 and 210.12
That has nothing to do with the requirement that the receptacle have GFCI protection. It just says you can't use a GFCI receptacle in that location to provide the required protection.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Not sure how the test/ reset being accessible effects anything as far as GFCI protection of a Rec. goes.
Imho, there's more than one consideration, which is confusing to me :(

Accessibility (210.8, 210.12) became more prevelant , so digging under a sink to find the gfi became an issue.

422.16 (B) , addresses specific appliances , all of which insist on accessibility

Part III of 422 goes on about disconnecting them all , 110.25 w/in sight. This ends up w/422.33 (&430 ) allowing a male cord cap said duty.

Then 422.34 seems to blow it all away

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Maybe it's just me. Never found one in resi fuse box in last 10 years.
How many 2-pole resets have you installed, and where, much less 3-pole?
For residential - mostly just for a hot tub when it comes to needing 2 pole. Certainly isn't prohibited if you wanted to use it on a MWBC.

2017 NEC has situations where a 3 pole GFCI can be required. Those that do a lot of commercial kitchens likely are seeing it a lot, or are opting to hardwire some things where possible that used to be cord and plug connected.
 
GFCI PROTECTION FOR DISPOSAL UNDER SINK

GFCI PROTECTION FOR DISPOSAL UNDER SINK

I don't see how that can be clearer. IMO, the receptacle under the sink does not need to be gfci protected assuming this is a dwelling.
IMO, if the receptacle is within 6 feet of the sink, no matter how you measure it, it should be GFCI protected. IF the origin of the rule as it pertains to 6 feet is specified because boom boxes, etc. have a 6 foot cord, then it is conceivable that some dullard could plug his radio into the receptacle while working under the sink. It has been my experience, that the majority of times that an individual dies from a 120VAC shock is when they cannot get away from it. I would certainly surmise that lying on one's back under the sink would not be conducive to recoiling from such a 120V contact.

Since it is under the sink and assuming the first contention above is correct, I would not allow for the use of a GFCI receptacle because it does not meet the definition of "Readily Accessible."

Article 100 Definitions.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible) Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspectionswithout requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

Most cabinets under residential kitchen sinks are crowded with the disposal itself and a myriad of cleaning products, etc., that would require removing depending on the location of the receptacle. If one needs to merely open the door to access the receptacle and such access is not impeded by the above reiterated, then a GFCI receptacle would be acceptable.

Just one inspector's opinion.

People commonly use the phrase "YOLO - you only live once." I maintain that "you live every day....you only die once."

 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
We had a Code Making Panel member at one of our meetings and, as don states, the intent of the change according to the CMP panel member was to address areas within 6 ft of the sink but on the other side of a walk-thru door such as in a bedroom, not a cabinet "doorway".
It being an outlet in the kitchen, AFCI would be required. It would seem to me economically one would just use a dual function breaker and avoid the controversy.
 

kwired

Electron manager
IMO, if the receptacle is within 6 feet of the sink, no matter how you measure it, it should be GFCI protected. IF the origin of the rule as it pertains to 6 feet is specified because boom boxes, etc. have a 6 foot cord, then it is conceivable that some dullard could plug his radio into the receptacle while working under the sink. It has been my experience, that the majority of times that an individual dies from a 120VAC shock is when they cannot get away from it. I would certainly surmise that lying on one's back under the sink would not be conducive to recoiling from such a 120V contact.

Since it is under the sink and assuming the first contention above is correct, I would not allow for the use of a GFCI receptacle because it does not meet the definition of "Readily Accessible."

Article 100 Definitions.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible) Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspectionswithout requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to actions such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

Most cabinets under residential kitchen sinks are crowded with the disposal itself and a myriad of cleaning products, etc., that would require removing depending on the location of the receptacle. If one needs to merely open the door to access the receptacle and such access is not impeded by the above reiterated, then a GFCI receptacle would be acceptable.

Just one inspector's opinion.

People commonly use the phrase "YOLO - you only live once." I maintain that "you live every day....you only die once."

Risk of shock when under said sink working in the cabinet is quite different when there is all non metallic plumbing, non conductive floors, etc. vs when there is metallic plumbing, conductive floors, etc.

There are many other "what if's" one could apply also ultimately leading to why not just GFCI everything.

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but why plug the radio in under the sink when you likely have many other places in the kitchen to do so? A trouble light or other tool you intend to use under sink, is more understandable.
 

PaulMmn

Senior Member
If 'readily accessible' is the issue, wouldn't a dead front gfci mounted on the side of the cabinet (or some cabinet), feeding the outlet under the sink meet the requirements??
 

jap

Senior Member
Because all most all inspection authorities say it is not readily accessible.
Not readily accessible for who?

Inspectors are not the ones in the kitchen when a GFI might trip, and, if they were, if the garbage disposal didn't work, the first place they'd probably look for a problem would be under the sink for a reset button or where it's plugged in.

So what's the big deal about having to reset it under there?

It's not like the cabinet door below the sink is screwed shut, or, a padlock on it that's only accessible by certain individuals.

Just seems odd of why it needs to be "readily" accessible.

JAP>
 
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