GFCI Receptacle in Weatherproof Box

[jumper]

Rated/listed enclosure used as a general use locker, cabinet, etc. isn't exactly being used as an electrical enclosure. They better have wiring methods within such enclosure supplying said receptacles that are generally acceptable for indoor locations and not just open conductors emerging from a raceway or cable entering said enclosure.

If they do have just open conductors within the enclosure then it does need to be rated/listed, which includes closing all openings with something that is listed or comparable to the enclosure wall, and need to use proper fittings for entering wiring methods. A sleeve large enough to pass the cord cap through just don't meet such requirements.

If it is not used as an electrical enclosure then it sort of becomes part of the building and not a part of the electrical system. Now you are passing the cord through a floor, wall or other building partition.

Exactly how you wish to observe certain details changes what code section(s) is violated.

Bill did not ask about the sleeve, so I did not get into it.

You are bringing up an issue that the OP was not not asking about.

It may or may not be an issue, but it is distracting from what the OP presented.

 

[kwired]

Bill did not ask about the sleeve, so I did not get into it.

You are bringing up an issue that the OP was not not asking about.

It may or may not be an issue, but it is distracting from what the OP presented.

I believe my answer was GFCI not needed for receptacle "inside the box". But presented the question of can said receptacle serve loads "outside the box" - not to be confused with "thinking outside the box"

 

[jumper]

I believe my answer was GFCI not needed for receptacle "inside the box". But presented the question of can said receptacle serve loads "outside the box" - not to be confused with "thinking outside the box"

I can live with that.:thumbsup:

And yes, this sleeve thing bothers me a bit, but if inspector ain't saying nuttin', I isn't.:angel:

Now help me beat up on ActionMan for saying recs need to be GFCI.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Say you have a 12"x12" nonmetallic weatherproof box and you need to install 120V receptacles in the box.
The box is mounted outside. Do you think GFCI receptacles would be required since it's inside the weatherproof box, cover held on with screws, no door?

The cover will remain on all the time. Cords are "sleeved" into the box.

This is for a sewer pump & alarm. Box is mounted on a post set beside tank. The pump cord and alarm control cord come out of the tank riser into a 2" conduit that connects to the weatherproof box.
That's what I was calling a "sleeve".
Inspector is requiring GFCI receptacles solely on the reason that it is outdoors.

There: "It is outdoors." I agree with your inspector.

How can one guarantee a service person won't use the receptacle?

My concern is if the receptacle for the alarm is a GFCI and it trips for some reason, the alarm won't go off should there be a problem with the pump/tank.

We've been in this pickle for some time, now. AFCIs on freezers and sump pumps really pushed the issue into my consciousness.

We have to install additional safety devices to protect ourselves from the operation of our required safety devices.

It's that simple, in my opinion. In this case, your concern for the "alarm silence" caused by the GFCI tripping, having a hardwired power loss alarm becomes a solution. . . maybe battery backup, and/or IoT linked?

 

[jumper]

How can one guarantee a service person won't use the receptacle?

Um, you saying I gotta plan for "what if".:huh:

 

[jumper]

There: "It is outdoors."

So is my truck. Assuming doors are closed and windows are up: Is the interior exposed to the weather?

 

[al hildenbrand]

The NFPA Glossary of Terms 2016 defines "outdoor area" as an area that is not indoors.

IMO, a receptacle outlet in a junction box on a post outdoors is not "indoors". "Indoor area" has the definition: An area that is within a building or structure having overhead cover, other than a structure qualifying as "weather protection."

I don't see the screwed on cover of the junction box as a "door".

 

[jumper]

The NFPA Glossary of Terms 2016 defines "outdoor area" as an area that is not indoors.

IMO, a receptacle outlet in a junction box on a post outdoors is not "indoors". "Indoor area" has the definition: An area that is within a building or structure having overhead cover, other than a structure qualifying as "weather protection."

I don't see the screwed on cover of the junction box as a "door".

Is the the interior of a listed/rated exterior enclosure a wet location?

Yes or no please, no caveats.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Is the the interior of a listed/rated exterior enclosure a wet location?

Yes or no please, no caveats.

This gives me a headache.

Most 3R enclosures are designed to drain. If they aren't wet, they are damp. . . . unless they are installed INDOORS.

 

[jumper]

This gives me a headache.

Most 3R enclosures are designed to drain. If they aren't wet, they are damp. . . . unless they are installed INDOORS.

Bill's enclosure will drain just fine, he has some funky sleeve going into it.

Have Dr appt, gotta go. Hopefully he will give me something for my headache.

 

[kwired]

Is the the interior of a listed/rated exterior enclosure a wet location?

Yes or no please, no caveats.

If there are raceways entering the top, very well can be condensation that drains into the enclosure. My earlier mentioned enclosures for communications equipment only have bottom entries. They never show any signs of moisture accumulation when I have returned to them. Contained equipment also generally creates enough heat that condensation within enclosure itself isn't all that likely.

What OP has is a clever idea to try to get around using GFCI, If GFCI were not an issue at all you can bet they would have just used a regular weatherproof receptacle box and weatherproof (in use) cover. Some inspectors may let one get away with that, I'd think most won't though.

 

[jumper]

If there are raceways entering the top, very well can be condensation that drains into the enclosure. My earlier mentioned enclosures for communications equipment only have bottom entries. They never show any signs of moisture accumulation when I have returned to them. Contained equipment also generally creates enough heat that condensation within enclosure itself isn't all that likely.

What OP has is a clever idea to try to get around using GFCI, If GFCI were not an issue at all you can bet they would have just used a regular weatherproof receptacle box and weatherproof (in use) cover. Some inspectors may let one get away with that, I'd think most won't though.

Too many words for this dumb bunny, I get befuddled.

Was that a yes or a no?

No if, and, or buts allowed. Distracts me worse than a squirrel.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Too many words for this dumb bunny, I get befuddled.

Was that a yes or a no?

No if, and, or buts allowed. Distracts me worse than a squirrel.

Still waiting for the meds to kick in?

Your "yes or no" question is incomplete. WHERE is the box installed? Indoors, or Outdoors?

 

[kwired]

Too many words for this dumb bunny, I get befuddled.

Was that a yes or a no?

No if, and, or buts allowed. Distracts me worse than a squirrel.

Lets just say if using it as a N3R "wiring box", you would have to use conductors with a "W" suffix in their type designation.

They did put dry location equipment inside of it. Using such a box is just faster and often less cost then building something else that is a general purpose dry closure. I don't believe such use is considered an electrical enclosure for such an application. That said I also believe any wiring inside also needs to be a "wiring method" and not just open conductors. This is just a really tiny "room" that isn't habitable.

If it is a wet location inside then I guess they would still need to put wet location covers on the receptacle(s) that were installed inside, and provide GFCI protection :blink:

 

[jumper]

Lets just say if using it as a N3R "wiring box", you would have to use conductors with a "W" suffix in their type designation.

They did put dry location equipment inside of it. Using such a box is just faster and often less cost then building something else that is a general purpose dry closure. I don't believe such use is considered an electrical enclosure for such an application. That said I also believe any wiring inside also needs to be a "wiring method" and not just open conductors. This is just a really tiny "room" that isn't habitable.

If it is a wet location inside then I guess they would still need to put wet location covers on the receptacle(s) that were installed inside, and provide GFCI protection :blink:

Good grief, I've seen five year olds pin down a greased pig at the fair easier than getting a simple answer here.

 

[jumper]

Still waiting for the meds to kick in?

Your "yes or no" question is incomplete. WHERE is the box installed? Indoors, or Outdoors?

Bloody quack of a doc. The fella is convinced that I am still alive, mustta got his license outta a box of crackerjacks.

The box is properly installed in a location that is listed for.

Pretty sure a wet location rated enclosure can be installed outside.

And we are gonna assume, hope, and pray the sleeve thingy is legit.

 

[Little Bill]

What OP has is a clever idea to try to get around using GFCI, If GFCI were not an issue at all you can bet they would have just used a regular weatherproof receptacle box and weatherproof (in use) cover. Some inspectors may let one get away with that, I'd think most won't though.

No clever idea trying to avoid anything! The box is required in order to accept the conduit/fitting/sleeve from the riser. The box would be there regardless of a GFCI.

The box is properly installed in a location that is listed for.

Pretty sure a wet location rated enclosure can be installed outside.

And we are gonna assume, hope, and pray the sleeve thingy is legit.

I just called it a "sleeve" because I don't consider it a raceway. The riser has a 2" K.O. that is to be used with a 2" conduit or fitting. What I have is a 2" 90 elbow sch. 80. Male adapters, nuts, & bushings were used. I added the same size KO to the box and the MA, nut, & bushing were used there as well.

The box had to be there for multiple reasons:
To accept the 2" conduit/fitting/sleeve that the cords from the pump run through
To accept the underground feed for the two circuits
To house the receptacles for the pump & alarm
Because it looks good on that post!

 

[al hildenbrand]

Bloody quack of a doc. The fella is convinced that I am still alive, mustta got his license outta a box of crackerjacks.

The box is properly installed in a location that is listed for.

Pretty sure a wet location rated enclosure can be installed outside.

And we are gonna assume, hope, and pray the sleeve thingy is legit.

When the receptacle outlet is "installed outside" (because the box that it is in is installed outside), the fact that I think the inside of the box is "dry" gives me zero relief from 210.8(A)(3) or 210.8(B)(4).

 

[jumper]

No clever idea trying to avoid anything! The box is required in order to accept the conduit/fitting/sleeve from the riser. The box would be there regardless of a GFCI.



I just called it a "sleeve" because I don't consider it a raceway. The riser has a 2" K.O. that is to be used with a 2" conduit or fitting. What I have is a 2" 90 elbow sch. 80. Male adapters, nuts, & bushings were used. I added the same size KO to the box and the MA, nut, & bushing were used there as well.

The box had to be there for multiple reasons:
To accept the 2" conduit/fitting/sleeve that the cords from the pump run through
To accept the underground feed for the two circuits
To house the receptacles for the pump & alarm
Because it looks good on that post!

Why the heck are you getting into our little quarrel?

Oh wait, you are the OP,,,,,,nevermind.

 

[jumper]

When the receptacle outlet is "installed outside" (because the box that it is in is installed outside), the fact that I think the inside of the box is "dry" gives me zero relief from 210.8(A)(3) or 210.8(B)(4).

My house is constructed outside, so my living room enviorment the same as my front yard.:huh:

Al, we are notta gonna agree. I will call it a truce and agree to disagree.

Have a good one.

Dinner is ready.:bye: