GFCI Receptacle in Weatherproof Box

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al hildenbrand said:
There: "It is outdoors." I agree with your inspector.

How can one guarantee a service person won't use the receptacle?
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That is a problem. I have had this problem with outdoor signs. The sign company will replace an outdoor pole sign with a new digital type sign. It's really a self contained unit with a plug connection for AC power. A receptacle is needed but the receptacle is located inside the frame and covering of the old sign. You would need to remove the outer cover of the sign for the receptacle to be accessable. They really don't work on the signs in the field they just unplug and replace. Makes it simple for the sign guys.

You can't use a GFCI receptacle because it's not really accessable. The owners don't wont a GFCI breaker.

Is it safe to just put a regular receptacle (single) in there and call it a day. I have done it but it does bother me.

I have never had an inspector question the installation but that doesn't mean anything. It's still my responsibility.
 
al hildenbrand said:
And this helps Little Bill in the opening post situation with his Electrical Inspector . . . how?
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Can't speak for his inspector.

My opinion through the entire thread has been the receptacle inside this "dry closure" doesn't need GFCI protection.

Where it gets complicated is that it is not supplying a load located within the "dry closure" I have pointed out already that running the cord(s) through sleeves into this closure is like running cords through walls or partitions on a more typical indoor application and that is in violation of flexible cord usage. Put the receptacle outside and there is no question it needs to be GFCI protected.

Another analogy, put same sump right next to a building and put a sleeve into the building to route the cord through. Non GFCI protected receptacle in that location may be acceptable not because of the load plugged into it but because of the location of the receptacle. But most of us here would turn down running the cord through a sleeve to get to the exterior and would require a receptacle be located on the exterior of building.

Installer in OP situation appears to be trying to justify the receptacle location as a dry location and no GFCI needed - I agree with that, if it were serving a load within that dry location- but he can't route flexible cord through walls, partitions.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Go read post #27 or post #41 in this thread. Get your own copy by clicking here.. Look up "outdoor area" and "indoor area."
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(A) Those definitions are from other NFPA codes and are not relevant to the NEC. The glossary is just a compilation and cross-reference of definitions from many codes.

(B) 210.8(A) uses the term "outdoors" which is not the same as "outdoor area". Outdoors is undefined, and this thread is entirely about how different people see the definition differently.

Cheers, Wayne
 
ActionDave said:
This is not hard to figure out. If you have an indoor cat where do you keep it? Inside a tiny plastic box out in your yard?
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So the size of the enclosure is a criterion for determining if the interior is "outdoors" or not? If I have a prefab plastic shed, the interior is not "outdoors", but if I shrink it to something too small for the cat to live in, the interior is now "outdoors"?

That doesn't make any sense. Kwired has the right idea and explained it perfectly.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
So the size of the enclosure is a criterion for determining if the interior is "outdoors" or not? If I have a prefab plastic shed, the interior is not "outdoors", but if I shrink it to something too small for the cat to live in, the interior is now "outdoors"?

That doesn't make any sense. Kwired has the right idea and explained it perfectly.

Cheers, Wayne
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:thumbsup:
 
al hildenbrand said:
Reference? Show me that RULE.
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The NEC is typically adopted by a jurisdiction and incorporated into law; the other standards included to make up the NFPA glossary you referenced may not be (and probably aren't). Even if they are adopted into law, I would expect that either implicitly or explicitly the force of those definitions are restricted to the standards in which they are defined.

NEC Article 100 Scope says the article "is not intended to include commonly defined general terms." Outdoors falls in that category. So let's try google definitions (I underlined the relevant parts):

"outdoors (noun) any area outside buildings or shelter, typically far away from human habitation."
"shelter (noun) a place giving temporary protection from bad weather or danger."

The outer box provides a shelter for the inner box; the outer box is outdoors, but the inner box is not.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The NEC is typically adopted by a jurisdiction and incorporated into law; the other standards included to make up the NFPA glossary you referenced may not be (and probably aren't). Even if they are adopted into law, I would expect that either implicitly or explicitly the force of those definitions are restricted to the standards in which they are defined.

NEC Article 100 Scope says the article "is not intended to include commonly defined general terms." Outdoors falls in that category. So let's try google definitions (I underlined the relevant parts):

"outdoors (noun) any area outside buildings or shelter, typically far away from human habitation."
"shelter (noun) a place giving temporary protection from bad weather or danger."

The outer box provides a shelter for the inner box; the outer box is outdoors, but the inner box is not.
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Reference? What is the RULE for what "[you] would expect". What is the RULE that says an NFPA Definition is worth less that a Google look-up definition?
 
A definition of "outdoors" is more on point than a definition of "outdoor area". The NEC rule uses the first term, not the second.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Remember Wayne: You are claiming the interior of a weatherproof electrical box is "INDOORS."
 
al hildenbrand said:
Remember Wayne: You are claiming the interior of a weatherproof electrical box is "INDOORS."
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Nope. I'm claiming it is not outdoors. And it is not outdoors, as it is sheltered from bad weather.

Let me ask you this: would it be OK to install a NEMA 1 load center inside a sufficiently large NEMA 3R enclosure?

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
Nope. I'm claiming it is not outdoors. And it is not outdoors, as it is sheltered from bad weather.

Let me ask you this: would it be OK to install a NEMA 1 load center inside a sufficiently large NEMA 3R enclosure?

Cheers, Wayne
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You can install a NEMA 1 load center in a tool shed if it's protected from the weather but the receptacles would still require GFCI protection.

It's not the receptacle that needs protection it the people that use tools and equipment that's plugged into said receptacles.
 
Maybe common sense?

The NFPA definition isn't for the correct term ("outdoor area" versus "outdoors") and is a "technical term" definition. While "outdoors" is a "commonly defined general term," so we should seek its definition in a general source, not a technical source. [Terminology from the NEC Article 100 Scope.]

Cheers, Wayne
 
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