GFCI Receptacle in Weatherproof Box

[al hildenbrand]

dew will only occur on the outside of the box, not the inside.

You are unresponsive about condensation.

Everything inside the PVC box will have dew, or condensation, on it.

You keep giving anecdotes. Is there a reference that says the interior of a 3R box in a wet location is a dry location?

 

[growler]

the only thing that matters from a code viewpoint is whether the interior of the enclosure is "outdoors".

The bubble covers that are required are an even smaller box that's to keep out the rain and snow but a GFCI protected receptacle is still required.

To say the least this is a gray enough area where it's going to end up being the inspector's call and guess which way 9 out of 10 are going to call it.

 

[wwhitney]

You are unresponsive about condensation.

Did you miss the rest of my post?

Yes, some condensation may occur. Condensation occurs in some homes with single paned glass windows, that doesn't make the vicinity of that window a damp location. My understanding is that condensation will be infrequent in most climates.

You've also said "3R enclosures are not intended to keep the damp out." If damp = liquid water, then I disagree, they are intended to keep liquid water out. They are not 100% successful, due to the possibility of condensation, but they are 99% successful (absent any failures). [If we stuck a 3R enclosure in a location that gets 30" of rain a year, and captured the condensation that occurs over a year, I'm betting that it is less than 0.3".]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

I don't believe it. Under your theory, all unconditioned buildings will have condensation inside.

Well, they do.

It's that simple. Whether you believe it or not.

In the warm spring, my unconditioned garage collects pools of water on the slab from the atmospheric condensation condensing on the concrete slab still resting on frozen earth that has yet to thaw for the summer. This condition lasts for days, and occasionally weeks, at a time.

I stand corrected for my use of the word "osmosis". Wrong word.

Water vapor moves on its own in air to areas of lesser concentration, even with little or no air movement. Period. 3R enclosures, by 110.28, are not intended to prevent condensation.

 

[wwhitney]

The bubble covers that are required are an even smaller box that's to keep out the rain and snow but a GFCI protected receptacle is still required.

Indeed.

Where to draw the line between "outdoors" and "not outdoors" is a judgement call. I see the extra level of protection that an overall sealed outer enclosure provides, versus just a bubble cover, as being enough to cross that threshold. The overall enclosure is to me more like the inside a tool shed with a raised floor (no GFCI required) than it is like a receptacle face exposed to the open air (GFCI required plus bubble cover, too).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

In the warm spring, my unconditioned garage collects pools of water on the slab from the atmospheric condensation condensing on the concrete slab still resting on frozen earth that has yet to thaw for the summer. This condition lasts for days, and occasionally weeks, at a time.

That is a great example, thank you. It clearly makes your unconditioned garage a damp location, rather than a dry location.

But not all outbuildings are like your unconditioned garage. And the conditions that cause your garage to be damp would not apply to a sealed box on a post.

Water vapor moves on its own in air to areas of lesser concentration, even with little or no air movement.

Actually, it was a little surprising to me to learn that the transport of gases through air is basically driven only by air movement. If you do the physics for diffusion of gases, the travel time for, say, an odor across a room where there is no bulk air movement is on the order of at least weeks. But in practice there is always bulk air movement, a confined space will never be completely leak free and at a uniform temperature.

3R enclosures, by 110.28, are not intended to prevent condensation.

Nope, they are not. But unlike your garage, there won't typically be enough condensation to make the interior a damp location, rather than a dry location.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

So, here's my bottom line.

I'm standing with my original first statement.

The 12 x 12 PVC box as described by the OP, as being mounted to a structure that is a post, outdoors, with no further structural protection, needs GFCI protection for a receptacle outlet mounted inside the 12 x 12 PVC box. 210.8(A)(3) or 210.8(B)(4), 110.28 plus Table 110.28 and the Article 100 Definitions of Weatherpoof, Location, Dry, Location, Damp, Location, Wet, Structure and, lastly, Equipment.

Additional support comes from NFPA 1, the Fire Code, definition of Indoor Area and Outdoor Area.

 

[jumper]

So, here's my bottom line.

And here is mine:

Somebody should have Gibb smacked LittleBill, or the client , for not getting 240V or hardwired 120V pumps and using a proper pump panel, like Tom Baker posted, in the first place.

 

[al hildenbrand]

And here is mine:

Somebody should have Gibb smacked LittleBill, or the client , for not getting 240V or hardwired 120V pumps and using a proper pump panel, like Tom Baker posted, in the first place.

One can hope the situation is Dwelling related. 240 Volt is getting hard to dodge GFCI with in Other Than Dwellings (210.8(B) first sentence).

 

[wwhitney]

The 12 x 12 PVC box as described by the OP, as being mounted to a structure that is a post, outdoors, with no further structural protection

While I don't agree with your conclusion, in your view, what is the minimum further structural protection that would be required before we could say that the receptacle is no longer outdoors? If you are done debating, I won't try to convince you that the line should be drawn elsewhere, I'm just curious where you draw the line.

Thanks, Wayne

 

[jumper]

One can hope the situation is Dwelling related. 240 Volt is getting hard to dodge GFCI with in Other Than Dwellings (210.8(B) first sentence).

I have a few more things I am hoping for:

It was mentioned that two circuits were ran to this box. Please let it be a MWBC.

Nothing has been talked about disconnecting means at the install.

As to:

GFCIs in a closed sealed enclosure....oh my..code cycle not with standing...eek.

Not my install so none of my business.

 

[Jim1959]

Nema 12 outdoors?

Nema 12 outdoors?

So if I go get some general building construction materials and build a weather tight enclosure that is only 24 x 24 x 8 inside and put some communications or network equipment not intended for outdoor installation inside of it have I not created a dry location for such equipment?

Now instead of going through all the trouble to build such a thing why can't I just purchase an already completed NEMA 12 enclosure and use it for the same purpose? It likely even lasts longer then the other method. It may or may not entirely meet some NEC definitions but is being used for same purpose - which is a dry closure for general purposes - any wiring inside must be a wiring method and not just open conductors as it is not being used as an electrical enclosure.

I've seen "electrical enclosures" used to house pneumatic equipment as well, NEC does't apply at all to those unless there is electrically operated valves or something of that nature inside.

This is off topic a bit, but much of this discussion has been. It seems to be a common misconception, but Nema 12 is not an outdoor rating for equipment, see Table 110.28. I've seen engineers specify Nema 12 for outdoors use in more that one instance and refuse to admit to being incorrect.

 

[texie]

This is off topic a bit, but much of this discussion has been. It seems to be a common misconception, but Nema 12 is not an outdoor rating for equipment, see Table 110.28. I've seen engineers specify Nema 12 for outdoors use in more that one instance and refuse to admit to being incorrect.

I noted that from kwire as well but chose not to derail the thread at that point. But you are correct. Hope we don't get flamed for this being a little off topic.

 

[jumper]

This is off topic a bit, but much of this discussion has been. It seems to be a common misconception, but Nema 12 is not an outdoor rating for equipment, see Table 110.28. I've seen engineers specify Nema 12 for outdoors use in more that one instance and refuse to admit to being incorrect.

I noted that from kwire as well but chose not to derail the thread at that point. But you are correct. Hope we don't get flamed for this being a little off topic.

No one here would ever debate a minor point or nitpick a small error..............

A thread go off topic.....never happen in a million years.....:angel:

We will now spend 3 days and make 400 posts discussing the "potential life threatening difference" between these two NEMA ratings.

 

[Little Bill]

I'm just so proud that I have a thread with 4 pages!

 

[jumper]

I'm just so proud that I have a thread with 4 pages!

Who are you? New to the forum?

 

[Little Bill]

Who are you? New to the forum?

Stop raining on my parade, MY THREAD, not the normal 4 or more!

 

[kwired]

While I don't agree with your conclusion, in your view, what is the minimum further structural protection that would be required before we could say that the receptacle is no longer outdoors? If you are done debating, I won't try to convince you that the line should be drawn elsewhere, I'm just curious where you draw the line.

Thanks, Wayne

+1, I have been struggling how to word a possible purpose of such an enclosure, this is good.

This is off topic a bit, but much of this discussion has been. It seems to be a common misconception, but Nema 12 is not an outdoor rating for equipment, see Table 110.28. I've seen engineers specify Nema 12 for outdoors use in more that one instance and refuse to admit to being incorrect.

I may have incorrectly stated N12, but boxes I have used for applications I had mentioned are Hoffman's "Concept" enclosures and are rated both NEMA 4 and NEMA 12.

 

[Jim1959]

I may have incorrectly stated N12, but boxes I have used for applications I had mentioned are Hoffman's "Concept" enclosures and are rated both NEMA 4 and NEMA 12.

I use a lot of Concept enclosures as well partially due to their multiple rating - 4/12/13. Just thought it was worth pointing out, as I've experienced working with others who are absolutely convinced that Nema 12 is appropriate for outdoor use.

 

[kwired]

I use a lot of Concept enclosures as well partially due to their multiple rating - 4/12/13. Just thought it was worth pointing out, as I've experienced working with others who are absolutely convinced that Nema 12 is appropriate for outdoor use.

I knew all along that one was indoor and one was outdoors rating - I don't always remember which is which, probably have gotten away with using the wrong one a few times, but when the enclosure is larger then 12 x 12 is almost always a Concept enclosure and works for either.