GFCI Receptacle in Weatherproof Box

[ActionDave]

Yes, that would be correct. Different set of premises from Al's.

That is a defined area in an interior location.

Al is trying to redefine a listed enclosure interior by using a definition from a source that explicitly says which documents it applies to. His definitions from that glossary do not list the NEC for those terms.

My point for the general usage is that a person has to intentionally modify the conditions of the install in order to create a hazardous condition.

Think of it like this.

If someone opens a window into your front room and plugs in a tool while standing outside, are you required to install a GFCI? No. The room did not magically become an exterior location.

That person modified the conditions. He is exposing a dry interior and using the receptacle in a way it was not intended. The receptacle was for table lamps and such in the room and not a pair of hedge clippers.

So you are okay with a recpt powering a sewer lift in a basement needing gfci protection but you don't think the same recpt in a plastic box out in the back yard needs to have it?

 

[jumper]

So you are okay with a recpt powering a sewer lift in a basement needing gfci protection but you don't think the same recpt in a plastic box out in the back yard needs to have it?

Are you okay with the idea that the interior of one listed enclosure is being treated as a wet location and the interior of another is not?

If I poke a hole in the wall, run the cord through a sleeve and plug it into a bedroom rec; do I need to change the rec to a GFCI?

The basement rec is in a clearly defined area. The basement.

The box is in a clearly defined area. The back yard.

The rec is in a clearly defined area. The interior of the box.

The definition of the interior of a listed wet location enclosure installed outdoors is not clearly defined. We ignore this fact because we have to. No wet location listed breakers.

 

[1793]

I have stated my opinion with my reasoning and that is all I have to say about this.

 

[kwired]

Remember Wayne: You are claiming the interior of a weatherproof electrical box is "INDOORS."

That is exactly why the box was used - to create a dry location. Could have used something that isn't also already rated as an electrical enclosure - that is part of what is stirring the debate here. it's use is not as an electrical enclosure but rather to create a small but dry location to house something.

You can install a NEMA 1 load center in a tool shed if it's protected from the weather but the receptacles would still require GFCI protection.

It's not the receptacle that needs protection it the people that use tools and equipment that's plugged into said receptacles.

Absolutely. If this is located on dwelling property, now we have more to debate about as to whether this is a dwelling accessory building and possibly requires GFCI anyway, may not be NEC intent, but wording certainly could be taken that way.

I started out reading this thread word for word. I took some time off and came back to see a few pages of reply's.

I then started to skim over the reply's to catch up. My take on this is that the receptacle in question should be a GFCI weather it is in a box or not, I'm leaving out the sleeve for now.

The utilization of the receptacle and or the equipment is what is at play here and that is outdoors.

If the receptacle location in a dry box is the reason for no GFCI protection then why are we require to have GFCI protection in garages and unfinished basements? Are these areas not dry?

Again, my position is GFCI is required.

Intent of nearly all of 210.8 is personnel protection, dwelling unit dishwashers is the only thing they threw in there, for the wrong reasons IMO, that is there for a reason other then personnel protection.

210.8 doesn't say anything about your points.

exactly, if it isn't there there is nothing to enforce.

So you are okay with a recpt powering a sewer lift in a basement needing gfci protection but you don't think the same recpt in a plastic box out in the back yard needs to have it?

Sewer lift pumps don't require GFCI protection. If they are plugged into a receptacle in a place mentioned in 210.8 - the receptacle is what requires protection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . by Al's reasoning a wet location box that has a listed dry location interior is magically changed if the outside of the box is in a wet location. The interior is now a wet location.

This change occurs despite the fact the box was designed to be installed in a wet location with the ability to sustain a dry interior under this condition.

What reference is there for that "listed" "dry location" in the interior of a WEATHERPROOF box? I think there is a huge assumption in play here.

2017 NEC
100 Definitions

Weatherproof. Constructed or protected so that exposure to the weather will not interfere with successful operation. (CMP-1)

Seriously, what reference? Not anecdote, but reference. Even WATERTIGHT is only accomplished in "under specified test conditions."

 

[ActionDave]

Sewer lift pumps don't require GFCI protection. If they are plugged into a receptacle in a place mentioned in 210.8 - the receptacle is what requires protection.

Which is what we are talking about in this thread.

 

[kwired]

Which is what we are talking about in this thread.

As well as wet/dry locations and running flexible cords through a sleeve all in the same installation.

 

[ActionDave]

As well as wet/dry locations and running flexible cords through a sleeve all in the same installation.

That got thrown into the mix but the question was, did an outdoor recpt powering a sewer lift require gfci protection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Yes, that would be correct. Different set of premises from Al's.

That is a defined area in an interior location.

Al is trying to redefine a listed enclosure interior by using a definition from a source that explicitly says which documents it applies to. His definitions from that glossary do not list the NEC for those terms.

My point for the general usage is that a person has to intentionally modify the conditions of the install in order to create a hazardous condition.

Think of it like this.

If someone opens a window into your front room and plugs in a tool while standing outside, are you required to install a GFCI? No. The room did not magically become an exterior location.

That person modified the conditions. He is exposing a dry interior and using the receptacle in a way it was not intended. The receptacle was for table lamps and such in the room and not a pair of hedge clippers.

Jumper, Kwired: I'm just trying to offer NFPA definitions that help to show that your inference of "dry location" based on anecdotes is not supported.

Please turn your attention to:

2017 NEC
Article 110 -- Requirements for Electrical Installations
110.28 Enclosure Types. Enclosures of . . . power outlets . . . shall be marked with an enclosure-type number as shown in Table 110.28.

Table 110.28 shall be used for selecting these enclosures for use in specific locations other than hazardous (classified) locations. The enclosures are not intended to protect against conditions such as condensation, icing, corrosion, or contamination that may occur within the enclosure or enter via the conduit or unsealed openings.

 

[wwhitney]

The interior of an intact 3R enclosure is a dry location. It is "not normally subject to dampness or wetness."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

The interior of an intact 3R enclosure is a dry location. It is "not normally subject to dampness or wetness."

Reference? I've literally just given you a NEC reference to the contrary.

 

[wwhitney]

Reference? I've literally just given you a NEC reference to the contrary.

The only thing in your reference relevant to the definition of "Location, dry" is the condensation. I would grant that if you're in an unusual location where climactic conditions cause frequent condensation in the interior of an outdoors 3R enclosure, then that might be a damp location. Otherwise, infrequent condensation is allowed under the definition of dry location, which may be "temporarily subject to dampness or wetness."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[kwired]

Jumper, Kwired: I'm just trying to offer NFPA definitions that help to show that your inference of "dry location" based on anecdotes is not supported.

Please turn your attention to:

There is some difference between the OP's situation and the example I keep giving of a NEMA 12 enclosure being used to house some communications/network equipment. OP's situation they placed outlet inside but ran cord to a load outside the enclosure.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Try to keep to the OP situation of a 12 x 12 PVC box mounted on a post outdoors with two conduits entering the 12 x 12 box. One of the conduits is a 2" PVC that has its other end penetrating a sewage tank. Outdoors means exposed to weather. The 12 x 12 PVC box is in a NEC Article 100 defined Wet Location.

Now go back to my post #109 where you will read:

2017 NEC
Article 110 -- Requirements for Electrical Installations
110.28 Enclosure Types. Enclosures of . . . power outlets . . . shall be marked with an enclosure-type number as shown in Table 110.28.

Table 110.28 shall be used for selecting these enclosures for use in specific locations other than hazardous (classified) locations. The enclosures are not intended to protect against conditions such as condensation, icing, corrosion, or contamination that may occur within the enclosure or enter via the conduit or unsealed openings.

Wayne, I'll excuse your reply as you probably have forgotten what weather is like outside of Berkeley.
Kwired, only you are talking about NEMA 12s.

 

[wwhitney]

The 12 x 12 PVC box is in a NEC Article 100 defined Wet Location.

Yep. But if the NEMA rating of the box is sufficient, the interior will be a dry location.

Wayne, I'll excuse your reply as you probably have forgotten what weather is like outside of Berkeley.

That is entirely possible.

But air exchange via the conduits is easily mitigated with some duct seal. Exterior icing is not going to affect the interior. Corrosion is not an issue with PVC. So that leaves interior condensation.

If the primary air exchange to the outside is via a small drain hole in the bottom of the enclosure, what are these (non-Berkeley) climactic conditions that will repeatedly cause air to get trapped in the box, and the box then chilled below the trapped air's dew point to cause condensation? Frequently enough to make the interior a damp location?

BTW the small drain hole ensures that any incidental condensation that may occur will drain out, and thus be "temporary," as per the definition of dry location.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

Water vapor moves osmoticly. Dew point temperatures are frequently in between the daily local high and low. Everything inside the PVC box will have dew, or condensation, on it.

You keep giving anecdotes. Is there a reference that says the interior of a 3R box in a wet location is a dry location?
Tapatalk

 

[jumper]

Water vapor moves osmoticly. Dew point temperatures are frequently in between the daily local high and low. Everything inside the PVC box will have dew, or condensation, on it.

You keep giving anecdotes. Is there a reference that says the interior of a 3R box in a wet location is a dry location?
Tapatalk

Al, that section merely states that moisture and such is a possibility in the enclosure.

It does not say that the interior of a listed enclosure is a wet location.

You keep saying I have to prove where it states that the interior is a dry location, but your code section does not say it is a wet location.

Remember, you have not provided a link to wet location rated breakers either.

Moreover, if condensation creates a wet location, you better go put in use bubble covers in most bathrooms.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Just a reminder, Jumper. I am saying wet or damp. Not wet only.

Most 3R enclosures are designed to drain. If they aren't wet, they are damp. . . . unless they are installed INDOORS.

Jumper, I am trying to show that ALL of the enclosures in Table 110.28 are not intended to protect against conditions such as condensation, icing, corrosion, or contamination that may occur within the enclosure or enter via the conduit or unsealed openings.

And, I have, by quoting NEC 110.28, given you a solid enforceable reference that is not my opinion, or inference from anecdote. 3R enclosures are not intended to keep the damp out.

You, however have stated your opinion that the interior is a "listed dry location", and have yet to give a direct reference, not an inference, but a reference.

As for circuit breakers, Jumper, there are no circuit breakers in the OP 12 x 12 PVC box.

The OP question is whether the OP's electrical inspector's call for GFCI protection is correct.

Also:

IEEE 100
The IEEE Authorative Dictionary of IEEE Standard Terms
Seventh Edition

Weatherproof Enclosure. An enclosure for outdoor application designed to protect against weather hazards such as rain, snow, or sleet. Note: Condensation is minimized by use of space heaters.

IEEE 100
The IEEE Authorative Dictionary of IEEE Standard Terms.
Seventh Edition

Weatherproof. (1) So constructed or protected that exposure to the weather will not interfere with successful operation. Rainproof, raintight, or watertight equipment can fulfill the requirements for weatherproof where varying weather conditions other than wetness, such as snow, ice, dust, or temperature extremes, are not a factor.

 

[wwhitney]

Water vapor moves osmoticly.

No, water vapor is a gas and moves like any other gas. Liquid water could move osmotically if a concentration gradient of some solute is set up. But that's another story.

Dew point temperatures are frequently in between the daily local high and low. Everything inside the PVC box will have dew, or condensation, on it.

I don't believe it. Under your theory, all unconditioned buildings will have condensation inside.

To resolve this, we'd need to take a sealed PVC box, drill a 1/4" drain hole in it, mount it outdoors on a post, and stick a wireless relative humidity meter in it. I bet in most places it would read 100% humidity at most a handful of times a year, not on a daily basis. [Maybe we'd need a better way of detecting condensation than a relative humidity meter.]

BTW, dew will not occur inside the box. Dew is condensation that occurs dues to radiative cooling on surfaces open to the night sky. The radiative cooling allows the surface to become colder than the dew point of the surrounding air. So dew will only occur on the outside of the box, not the inside.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

P.S. While the question of whether the interior of the PVC box is a dry location is an interesting one, the only thing that matters from a code viewpoint is whether the interior of the enclosure is "outdoors".

Cheers, Wayne