GFCI Receptacle in Weatherproof Box

[wwhitney]

You can install a NEMA 1 load center in a tool shed if it's protected from the weather but the receptacles would still require GFCI protection.

I would think that the receptacle would not require protection under (2011) 210.8(A)(3) or 210.8(B)(4) (the two "Outdoors" rules). Rather, if the tool shed is associated with a dwelling unit, GFCI would be required under 210.8(A)(2).

So again, inside a plastic shed is not outdoors. Now shrink the shed to a plastic weatherproof box, the interior is still not outdoors.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

Maybe common sense?

So, you are saying the NEC RULE is "Wayne's common sense."

 

[wwhitney]

So, you are saying the NEC RULE is "Wayne's common sense."

The (2011) NEC RULE is that 125V single phase 15A and 20A receptacles located "outdoors" require GFCI protection for personnel (210.8).

The NEC provides no guidance about how to interpret "outdoors." Like many similar general terms, interpretation requires the use of general references such as dictionaries and common sense. It does not require referencing NFPA 55 "Compressed Gases and Cryogenic Fluids Code" to look up the definition of "indoor area". (*)

Cheers, Wayne

(*)To be fair, the same definition is used in NFPA 1 "Fire Code." But as "outdoors" is a general term, the dictionary is a better reference than a somewhat off-point definition from another Code.

 

[1793]

I started out reading this thread word for word. I took some time off and came back to see a few pages of reply's.

I then started to skim over the reply's to catch up. My take on this is that the receptacle in question should be a GFCI weather it is in a box or not, I'm leaving out the sleeve for now.

The utilization of the receptacle and or the equipment is what is at play here and that is outdoors.

If the receptacle location in a dry box is the reason for no GFCI protection then why are we require to have GFCI protection in garages and unfinished basements? Are these areas not dry?

Again, my position is GFCI is required.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Say you have a 12"x12" nonmetallic weatherproof box and you need to install 120V receptacles in the box.
The box is mounted outside.

This is for a sewer pump & alarm. Box is mounted on a post set beside tank. The pump cord and alarm control cord come out of the tank riser into a 2" conduit that connects to the weatherproof box.

The tank and riser are a listed unit with a factory KO for the 2" conduit to run the cords out to whatever houses the receptacles. It is my understanding that the receptacles used to be mounted inside the riser/tank top, now are required to be outside of the tank.

Wayne, this 12 x 12 PVC box is clearly located Outdoors. It is not a Tardis. It is just a PVC box. The inside of the box is located in the same place. . . Outdoors.

Maybe common sense?

 

[jumper]

I started out reading this thread word for word. I took some time off and came back to see a few pages of reply's.

I then started to skim over the reply's to catch up. My take on this is that the receptacle in question should be a GFCI weather it is in a box or not, I'm leaving out the sleeve for now.

The utilization of the receptacle and or the equipment is what is at play here and that is outdoors.

If the receptacle location in a dry box is the reason for no GFCI protection then why are we require to have GFCI protection in garages and unfinished basements? Are these areas not dry?

Again, my position is GFCI is required.

Um, these are not general usage receptacles.

These are dedicated receptacles located in a listed enclosure that is closed while the equipment the receptacles serve is running.

Nobody is utilizing them, just the equipment.

 

[al hildenbrand]

These are dedicated receptacles located in a listed enclosure that is closed while the equipment the receptacles serve is running.

Nobody is utilizing them, just the equipment.

210.8 doesn't say anything about your points.

 

[jumper]

Wayne, this 12 x 12 PVC box is clearly located Outdoors. It is not a Tardis. It is just a PVC box. The inside of the box is located in the same place. . . Outdoors.

Al, go look at the scope of article 100 and look at the definitions.

No outdoor or indoor definition.

The definitions that directly apply to the NEC/NFPA 70 are listed.

As Wayne stated, your glossary is only really applicable to specific NFPA standards/codes that reference them and the NEC does not.

I was willing to concede a draw or truce, but no way will I agree to your reasoning/arguement.

 

[wwhitney]

Wayne, this 12 x 12 PVC box is clearly located Outdoors. It is not a Tardis. It is just a PVC box.

Yep.

The inside of the box is located in the same place. . . Outdoors.

Nope. It's not outdoors, it's inside.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jumper]

210.8 doesn't say anything about your points.

Er, you might want to reread the part about protection for personnel in that section.

There are no people inside this enclosure plugging equipment into the receptacles.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Er, you might want to reread the part about protection for personnel in that section.

There are no people inside this enclosure plugging equipment into the receptacles.

:jawdrop:Seriously? There are cord caps inserted in receptacle outlets ! Do they magically insert and remove themselves?

No. Personnel manipulate the cord caps. . . and the personnel are standing outdoors. (Because the 12 x 12 PVC box is not a Tardis.)

 

[1793]

I started out reading this thread word for word. I took some time off and came back to see a few pages of reply's.

I then started to skim over the reply's to catch up. My take on this is that the receptacle in question should be a GFCI weather it is in a box or not, I'm leaving out the sleeve for now.

The utilization of the receptacle and or the equipment is what is at play here and that is outdoors.

If the receptacle location in a dry box is the reason for no GFCI protection then why are we require to have GFCI protection in garages and unfinished basements? Are these areas not dry?

Again, my position is GFCI is required.

Um, these are not general usage receptacles.

These are dedicated receptacles located in a listed enclosure that is closed while the equipment the receptacles serve is running.

Nobody is utilizing them, just the equipment.

Um, sump pump in a little closet in a basement?

 

[tom baker]

Ready made sewage pump panels are available with provisions for floats, pumps and alarms (Orenco).
We have many enclosures with multiple receptacles for events and festivals, enclosures are about 12 x12 each recpt is GFCI

Inspector is correct, GFCI required or go with Orenco

 

[jumper]

:jawdrop:Seriously? There are cord caps inserted in receptacle outlets ! Do they magically insert and remove themselves?

No. Personnel manipulate the cord caps. . . and the personnel are standing outdoors. (Because the 12 x 12 PVC box is not a Tardis.)

Al please, the pumps are not hand held equipment nor are they being touched by a person when inserting a plug. Hard to get shocked if you are not touching something.

Moreover, the receptacles can be de-energized through the disco.

These are not general use receptacles. They are not readily accessible for any moron to plug something into.

210.8 covers areas where people people would be using common tools and appliances.
Well, except crawl spaces, but no one puts one there unless needed.

Common definition of outdoors includes in open air/exposed to the weather.
The inside of a closed listed enclosure does not seem to fit that description.

And I have no idea what a tardis is. Google says it some type of time machine or whatnot off a British sitcom. Clueless how that applies here.

 

[jumper]

Um, sump pump in a little closet in a basement?

What sump pump in a closet are you talking about?

 

[ActionDave]

...And I have no idea what a tardis is. Google says it some type of time machine or whatnot off a British sitcom. Clueless how that applies here.

The TARDIS is Dr. Who's time machine. It is the size and shape of an old British police box until you enter, then it is bigger on the inside.

 

[ActionDave]

What sump pump in a closet are you talking about?

He's saying that a receptacle in a basement for a sump pump (or a sewer lift) requires gfci protection because of it's location and has nothing to do with whether or not it is for general use.

If you were to put that recept in a tiny closet in the basement it would still require gfci protection. If you were to put it in a tiny closet in the basement and in a type three enclosure and even add a lock on the door it would still require gfci protection.

 

[1793]

He's saying that a receptacle in a basement for a sump pump (or a sewer lift) requires gfci protection because of it's location and has nothing to do with whether or not it is for general use.

If you were to put that recept in a tiny closet in the basement it would still require gfci protection. If you were to put it in a tiny closet in the basement and in a type three enclosure and even add a lock on the door it would still require gfci protection.

Exactly my point, well said !!!

 

[jumper]

The TARDIS is Dr. Who's time machine. It is the size and shape of an old British police box until you enter, then it is bigger on the inside.

Okay, so the inside of this box is magically bigger than the outside.

That is ironic since by Al's reasoning a wet location box that has a listed dry location interior is magically changed if the outside of the box is in a wet location. The interior is now a wet location.

Poof! Abracadabra! Shazam!

This change occurs despite the fact the box was designed to be installed in a wet location with the ability to sustain a dry interior under this condition.

Maybe this happens in Henry Potter land, but not here. Al can keep his tardis, I ain't buying it.

I am still waiting for a wet location rated breaker since my 3R panels are in wet location so the inside of them must a wet location also.

 

[jumper]

He's saying that a receptacle in a basement for a sump pump (or a sewer lift) requires gfci protection because of it's location and has nothing to do with whether or not it is for general use.

If you were to put that recept in a tiny closet in the basement it would still require gfci protection. If you were to put it in a tiny closet in the basement and in a type three enclosure and even add a lock on the door it would still require gfci protection.

Exactly my point, well said !!!

Yes, that would be correct. Different set of premises from Al's.

That is a defined area in an interior location.

Al is trying to redefine a listed enclosure interior by using a definition from a source that explicitly says which documents it applies to. His definitions from that glossary do not list the NEC for those terms.

My point for the general usage is that a person has to intentionally modify the conditions of the install in order to create a hazardous condition.

Think of it like this.

If someone opens a window into your front room and plugs in a tool while standing outside, are you required to install a GFCI? No. The room did not magically become an exterior location.

That person modified the conditions. He is exposing a dry interior and using the receptacle in a way it was not intended. The receptacle was for table lamps and such in the room and not a pair of hedge clippers.