Gfci TIA for Ranges

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
What makes you think those components are isolated from ground? The solenoid in your picture has a metal mounting plate that gets mounted to the metal frame of the dishwasher. An overheating solenoid will eventually create a ground fault tripping a GFCI breaker. It will probably never pull enough current to trip a standard breaker.

While I don't agree with some of the new requirements for GFCI protection, especially central A/C equipment, in most case there will not be any issues other than the cost of the GFCI.

I have not had any call backs on projects we have wired due to dishwashers and disposals tripping GFCI's.

Commercial kitchens have required GFCI protection for a long time now without major issues.


Both the service manual mention no ground and the actual machine has no ground over to the drain valve. The solenoid body is metal yes, but mounted to a plastic pump body:


This is the reason why new dishwashers rarelly if ever trip GFCIs, they were redesigned to isolate most major components.
 

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Both the service manual mention no ground and the actual machine has no ground over to the drain valve. The solenoid body is metal yes, but mounted to a plastic pump body:


This is the reason why new dishwashers rarelly if ever trip GFCIs, they were redesigned to isolate most major components.
That replacement pump states it comes with 2 ground leads and a ground screw. Doesn't sound like they want it isolated to me.

I have never seen a solenoid that had an internal grounding wire. Similar to the windings of a motor, or transformer, no ground wire. The metal frames are grounded.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
That replacement pump states it comes with 2 ground leads and a ground screw. Doesn't sound like they want it isolated to me.

I have never seen a solenoid that had an internal grounding wire. Similar to the windings of a motor, or transformer, no ground wire. The metal frames are grounded.


Did you watch the video? Ground for the motor if the old model requires that the motor be grounded and the hanger happens to be isolated from the grounded frame.

Here is another video- the motor grounds via the hanger, but the drain valve, water valve and heating element are isolated:

 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Both the service manual mention no ground and the actual machine has no ground over to the drain valve. The solenoid body is metal yes, but mounted to a plastic pump body:


This is the reason why new dishwashers rarelly if ever trip GFCIs, they were redesigned to isolate most major components.
I think isolation just a byproduct of using nonmetallic for things that used to be metallic more so than intentional isolation.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I think isolation just a byproduct of using nonmetallic for things that used to be metallic more so than intentional isolation.


In some cases I would say you are indeed correct, however, in others I can't help but notice the same metal bracketed parts went from grounded to ungrounded around the 90s.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
why not descending ma, from mains to submains ? ~RJ~

There is a nifty system coordinated using fiber optics where a breaker detecting a ground fault will restrain upstream devices from tripping. This lets all the devices have the same fault sensitivity but only the device closest to the fault trips.

I suppose you could apply the same sort of thinking down at the appliance level with suitable application of $$.

Jon
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrical Monke
This POs me so much. The internal quality of appliances has nose dived to the point end of life failure modes are marked by fire or shock yet the NEC is called upon as being the solution by code making panel members working for the same companies that produce the trash of concern.

I just read this for the first time.


Someone tried to push for every 15-20A 120v circuit in a dwelling to be AFCI. It failed with a 7-7 vote; the "disagree" comments were clearly not in favor of any AFCI expansion. Take a look.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I just read this for the first time.


Someone tried to push for every 15-20A 120v circuit in a dwelling to be AFCI. It failed with a 7-7 vote; the "disagree" comments were clearly not in favor of any AFCI expansion. Take a look.




They were for AFCIs until they experienced the nuisance tripping themselves. 😂🤣

I hate the fact someone just had to say "IEC supports AFCI technology" Ummm, they only do because US manufacturers bullied them into publishing an AFCI standard which was nothing more than a copy of UL1699.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am thinking of boycotting certain manufacturers who have push their products into the NEC. I know Schneider has been pretty bad. I commend Steve campolo from leviton for his stance in opposing that amendment.
When it comes to panels and breakers you pretty much ruled out everyone that makes equipment for the North American markets didn't you? There is only four players here though they each may have more than one product line.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
To protect all the afci and gfci breakers that are now required. It sounds like I'm joking, but I'm not.
Makes sense if they are pushing blame for AFCI/GFCI failure (neusence tripping) as transients from surge. Also all the sensitive electronics inside the AFCI/GFCI breakers.

Add a twist, So if the panel box is located in an area that would normally require AFCI protection (ie living room) adding the surge protection devices like I've seen that are wired, to seperate external (to the panel box) device does the SPD require AFCI protection?
 
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