Gfci

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Karl H said:
Yeah, OK, make it look so simple!!!!
Mr. Smart Electrician Guy! I bet your going to tell the OP
to simply close the cover of the panel after he is done making his
splices as well. :D
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Since he's correcting violations in the panel of a house for sale the simplest and cheapest method should be employed. That was the splice and run method. If someone wants to pay him for hours of research to find where the two conductors go then they should ask for that. A simple splice corrects the violation. Seems like the guy who's paying the bill is only concerned about that. :rolleyes:
 
infinity said:
Since he's correcting violations in the panel of a house for sale the simplest and cheapest method should be employed. That was the splice and run method. If someone wants to pay him for hours of research to find where the two conductors go then they should ask for that. A simple splice corrects the violation. Seems like the guy who's paying the bill is only concerned about that. :rolleyes:
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Must talk like a machine <beep> must act like a machine <beep>.
:D Just messing with ya.:D
 
480sparky said:
If they're both on the same SP breaker, you can't overload the noodle.
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Ok. Now I at least understand how that would be fine as far as not overloading the neutral as the breaker would trip before it would overload it. But still doesn't make sense as to why you would put 2 wires from the same cable on the same breaker.
 
steelersman said:
Ok. Now I at least understand how that would be fine as far as not overloading the neutral as the breaker would trip before it would overload it. But still doesn't make sense as to why you would put 2 wires from the same cable on the same breaker.
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14/3 circuit 12 amps on black, 12 amps on red ,both hots are on the same
phase, 24 amps on the neutral. Both ungrounded conductors are protected
by a 15 amp OCPD. Would the breaker trip?
 
Karl H said:
14/3 circuit 12 amps on black, 12 amps on red ,both hots are on the same
phase, 24 amps on the neutral. Both ungrounded conductors are protected
by a 15 amp OCPD. Would the breaker trip?
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No. But that's not the case here. OP said they're on the same breaker.
 
Karl H said:
14/3 circuit 12 amps on black, 12 amps on red ,both hots are on the same
phase, 24 amps on the neutral. Both ungrounded conductors are protected
by a 15 amp OCPD. Would the breaker trip?
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no, but when you say same phase you would have to mean different breakers but same phase for the neutral to have 24 amps. So in this case the breaker would not trip cause there is only 12 amps flowing through each breaker.
 
Karl H said:
This is a question for Steelersman. I hope this question will help
him understand this situation better.I think he is starting to get it.:D
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I already had gotten it. What I didn't get was why would someone run 2 hots on same breaker from same 3 wire cable. And still nobody has given a feasible response.
 
the original installer would be the only one the could really answer the question but, my guess is someone before the OP needed to add a breaker for a new circuit and just took one wire off a breaker and landed it on a breaker to put the new one in.
 
steelersman said:
no, but when you say same phase you would have to mean different breakers but same phase for the neutral to have 24 amps. So in this case the breaker would not trip cause there is only 12 amps flowing through each breaker.
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Could I have ment one breaker on one phase? As in a 14/3 both ungrounded
conductors landed on one breaker,one neutral?

I understand your question, I don't think anyone on this forum could
answer the "Why" part. Because I don't think anyone that spends as much
time as we do on a NEC forum would think ,"Hey this is a great idea,
I'll just land two conductors under one lug that isn't listed for it.":D
 
steelersman said:
You couldn't have 12 amps on each ungrounded conductor and 24 on the neutral in that case. Or you could but not for long before the breaker would trip.
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Exactly, the op said it was two ckts landed on one breaker. That is not a
MWBC. It is ONE circuit. You cannot have 12 amps on two ungrounded
conductors and have 24 amps on a shared neutral on the same phase or
should I say one sp breaker. We are not talking non-linear loads here.
No you can't have 12 amps on the ungrounded conductor and 24 amps
on the grounded conductor,if it is a Single circuit. Even if that was possible
the breaker would never trip. We don't put breakers on grounded conductors.
 
glene77is said:
Just curious ... I came up short on ideas on what you had in mind.
What kind of code compliance might be involved?
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I was thinking that perhaps this was a sabc and that the kitchen needed the 2 circuits. By making it one you may now have only one sabc. Just a thought.
 
Karl H said:
Exactly, the op said it was two ckts landed on one breaker. That is not a
MWBC. It is ONE circuit. You cannot have 12 amps on two ungrounded
conductors and have 24 amps on a shared neutral on the same phase or
should I say one sp breaker. We are not talking non-linear loads here.
No you can't have 12 amps on the ungrounded conductor and 24 amps
on the grounded conductor,if it is a Single circuit. Even if that was possible
the breaker would never trip. We don't put breakers on grounded conductors.
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yes you could have 12 amps on each ungrounded conductor and 24 on the neutral for a total of 24 flowing through the same single pole breaker and it would trip it eventually.

It is possible to feed 2 equal loads from this single pole breaker with 2 ungrounded conductors #12 with a shared neutral having 24 amps on the neutral. This would mean that 24 amps would have to pass through the breaker and split to 12 between the 2 ungrounded conductors. This would eventually trip the breaker.
 
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090203-2123 EST

If you have a 20 A breaker with #12 for both neutral and hot connected to two duplex receptacles and you load each receptacle with a 12 A load, and by contrast the same breaker with two #12 hot wires and the same neutral going to two receptacles and using one hot to each receptacle, and loaded in the same manner, then what is the difference other than a slightly lower source impedance?

The current in the neutral is insignificantly different. Both conditions constitute an overloaded circuit. Maybe a good reason for one duplex per breaker for the area where this kind of loading might occur.

.
 
gar said:
090203-2123 EST

If you have a 20 A breaker with #12 for both neutral and hot connected to two duplex receptacles and you load each receptacle with a 12 A load, and by contrast the same breaker with two #12 hot wires and the same neutral going to two receptacles and using one hot to each receptacle, and loaded in the same manner, then what is the difference other than a slightly lower source impedance?

The current in the neutral is insignificantly different. Both conditions constitute an overloaded circuit. Maybe a good reason for one duplex per breaker for the area where this kind of loading might occur.

.
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very confusing, but I think I just said that a couple of posts ago.
 
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