GFCIs under kitchen sinks

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mbrooke said:
IMO 6 foot would be the other edges of the sink rather than underneath.
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Massachusetts disagrees with your interpretation of the NEC requirements but does agree with the concept.

This is a the amendment Mass put in for 2011

210.8(A)(7). Revise to read as follows:

(7) Sinks - for other than kitchens as covered in 210.8(A)(6), where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 feet), measured horizontally, of the outside edge of the sink.
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And for 2014

210.8. Add a new 210.8(E) to read as follows:

(E) Measurements. For the purposes of this section, when determining distances from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, doorway, window or other opening or other effective barrier.
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jap said:
The dishwasher is usually located to one side or the other of the sink. If your cord runs through the cabinets to get to the receptacle under the sink, how do you protect it from physical damage that may occur from pots and pans being stacked in the cabinet?:)
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I would not worry about it.

How is that much different from a cord for any appliance running across a floor?
 
That's what I thought too but he said they put a plug tape the cut sheet to the counter where dw goes call for final and the appliance co does the rest.
 
electricalist said:
So the gfci protection is in case the equipment falls in the sink . that equipment being the disposal,,it could happen but it's doubtful the cord is long enough. The fact that water runs through it makes it a good candidate for protection just like a sub pump.
If it was hard wired with a switch would it still need gfci protection?
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Sump pumps do not require GFCI protection, but if cord and plug connected the receptacle they plug into often does require GFCI protection because of where it is located - basement, garage, outdoors....

GoldDigger said:
'But that forces you to use a GFCI breaker rather than a GFCI receptacle (unless the GFCI receptacle is upstream in a readily accessible location.)
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Though I haven't had to connect many yet since 2014 went into effect - I have been using Square D's combination AFCI/GFCI breaker as the dishwasher needs to have both types of protection now.
 
kwired said:
Sump pumps do not require GFCI protection, but if cord and plug connected the receptacle they plug into often does require GFCI protection because of where it is located - basement, garage, outdoors....



Though I haven't had to connect many yet since 2014 went into effect - I have been using Square D's combination AFCI/GFCI breaker as the dishwasher needs to have both types of protection now.
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You guys are schooling me to death on its the device that's causing the requirements not the equipment. Ty and. If I don't have nightmares from being corrected so many times in one thread,,,I won't forget to say,,,,,is it the equipment in question or the device.
 
electricalist said:
You guys are schooling me to death on its the device that's causing the requirements not the equipment. Ty and. If I don't have nightmares from being corrected so many times in one thread,,,I won't forget to say,,,,,is it the equipment in question or the device.
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Well 210.8 (A) and (B) only covers 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle outlets.

This leaves us with (C) for boat hoists and (D) for dwelling unit dishwashers. (D) was added to 2014 NEC.

That is all the general GFCI requirements, everywhere else GFCI protection is required it is for specific equipment or special conditions like for vending machines, drinking fountains, swimming pools...

There is no code that specifically says something in or near water must be GFCI protected, though many of the GFCI requirements do align themselves with being related to something in or near water, but not all are directly related to water either. Some are just requirements for conditions that typically have a lot of ground potential objects in the vicinity.
 
jap said:
They dont get pots and pans stacked on top of them.:)
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Maybe not, just walked on, chair legs put down on them, appliances pushed back on to them etc.

I think I would have to try very hard to damage a cord with a pot or a pan.

Besides, who keeps pots and pans under the sink? That is cleaning products and trash keeping area. :)
 
George Stolz said:
You obviously haven't met my children. :)
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96d8a705ecba6a4e3b7a5154382f2a0d.jpg

He will be the reason for atleast 1 code change
 
iwire said:
Maybe not, just walked on, chair legs put down on them, appliances pushed back on to them etc.

I think I would have to try very hard to damage a cord with a pot or a pan.

Besides, who keeps pots and pans under the sink? That is cleaning products and trash keeping area. :)
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I forgot about that. You got me on that one.
 
I really don't understand what determines when gfci protection is needed which eventually becomes a requirement. Anything to has a cord that isn't designed to be water/electricity friendly, but to imply a dishwasher( outlet) needs only reinforces that wr isn't good enough and the future will gfci protection for any outlet where it can get wet. Anywhere liquids are stored will be next.
 
electricalist said:
I really don't understand what determines when gfci protection is needed which eventually becomes a requirement. Anything to has a cord that isn't designed to be water/electricity friendly, but to imply a dishwasher( outlet) needs only reinforces that wr isn't good enough and the future will gfci protection for any outlet where it can get wet. Anywhere liquids are stored will be next.
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The general rules that always apply are in 210.8 - and it is not really all that much there and is mostly involving receptacle outlets on 15 or 20 amp circuits @ 120 volts. No receptacle outlet, no GFCI requirement. The specific equipment/special circumstances are the ones you kind of just need to learn.

The dishwasher was a stupid addition in 2014. If you read ROP's on why this came about it was about certain dishwashers having components fail that can start fires - apparently a GFCI typically will respond to this failure as it must develop a ground fault when it happens. IMO this should be a consumer safety product or even a listing issue that the manufacturers should find a solution for not the NEC. And GFCI protection is about personnel protection not equipment protection in the first place.

Now maybe the manufacturer solution is to install GFCI protection in their appliance and I would be ok with that - but I'm sure that means they have to sell their appliance at a higher cost then their competitor that doesn't have the failing component that causes fires:roll:
 
That's what I'm talking about. I know my knowledge is small compared to many on this site but you saying more or less what I try to understand tells me I'm not far off on how I'm grasping nec intentions.
This is proving that some codes don't apply equally across all the installations.
I feel better though.
 
electricalist said:
That's what I'm talking about. I know my knowledge is small compared to many on this site but you saying more or less what I try to understand tells me I'm not far off on how I'm grasping nec intentions.
This is proving that some codes don't apply equally across all the installations.
I feel better though.
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Knowing what hazards are present and what can be done to minimize risks does go a long way into understanding many code requirements. As mentioned, throw some water in the vicinity of an electrical item and it doesn't automatically mean GFCI protection is required, but does increase the chances there is a GFCI requirement associated with that situation.
 
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