Gfi/afci tester

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AL,
Good observation. :smile:
IMO, the "signal processor" could simply be analog.
It could Cheaply be a capacitor tapping off some of the possible "arcing signal" high frequency, passing it through a summing amp, through a peaking holding stage, and then passing it to a comparator stage. All analog functions.

You are right, the "Official" minimum "Arc Fault Signal"
is NOT specified by the manufacturers. :mad:

We could, possibly generate a high frequency audio signal,
trip the AFCI, and observe the waveform with an oscilloscope. :cool:
Then carry around the audio signal generator and Oscope to test circuits.
Yeh! right!, no electrician is going to do that!

We STILL would not have the manufacturer's specifications! :mad:
 
Push the test button and move on.:smile:

UL says that is OK so I can sleep well.

If the problem is nuisance tripping then my understanding is a Megameter and a good multimeter are the tools needed to troubleshoot the field wiring.
 
iWire,

I agree,
" Push the test button and move on. :smile: "

Unless someone is going to engineer a better mouse-trap!
Electricians generally don't do that.
 
We went through all of the same headaches with the gfci's. I think the first gfci was out somewhere in the mid 70's?? If you are having problems with afci's and you know the branch wiriing is fine, (test) replace with another breaker. Also stay up to date on the recalls that occur on these devices.:smile:
 
ELA said:
al hildenbrand said:
No.

The arc-fault protection, itself, is untestable.
Click to expand...
I disagree with that thought Al,
. . .
Arcs have readily understood characteristics that the breaker manufacturers understand and use to design their product. A manufacturer of a "tester" can duplicate this as well.
. . .
Of course the more complicated you want the tester to be the more it would cost. . .
Click to expand...
I like the work you've done. Your post on your AFCI testing results is great hands-on information that I wish we had more of. It's too bad that the knowledge from your work and reporting, and other grass roots information sources, is not matched by the manufacturers themselves.

Let me be clear about my AFCI protection untestability point.

The Combination Type AFCI has responses to real world "signals" that, I intuit, are going to be beyond representation by anything as simple as an inverse time - current curve. Siemens has given us an IEEE Holm Conference document that outlines arc discrimination techniques. (Skip to section VII on page 6 to get into the meat, if you haven't already read this). Note the curve called out as the "Integrated output of the Interruption Counter" and the dashed line called the "Fault Inspection Threshold" in Figures 8, 9 & 10 . . . that's where the "rubber" of an "AFCI Tester" starts "meeting the road".

Jap, in the OP and subsequent posts, explains that s/he is looking for a "tester" that will:
jap said:
. . .a tester that verifies that the . . . AFCI is staying Latched up to its Standards. . .
Click to expand...
A "tester", to truly be a Tester, has to check ALL possible combinations of signals that contribute to the AFCI firmware outputting to the Interruption Counter.

Anything less than ALL relegates the "tester" to the status of an "indicator".

And there is still the AFCI plain-old-garden-variety (POGV) overcurrent mechanism that must be "tested".

We don't test a POGV inverse time current breaker for all points along THAT curve . . . How many, reading this, ever routinely test overcurrent - time responses of branch circuit breakers in situ ? We simply plug in the breaker, turn it on, and walk away. If the breaker is tripping, maybe we take current readings, maybe swap it out, maybe not, but we don't routinely test that the breaker "stays latched up to its standards," not directly. I know it can be done, but, who, in the field does that? This, then, is the model that is being foisted upon us.
 
afci tester

afci tester

MichaelJ said:
is ther any tester that can be used for inspection purpose, ex plug into recpt in bedroom and trip the breaker just to make sure the bedroom recpts are arc-fault protected without having to go to the panel hit the testbutton then retrun to bedroom and check with three light tester and then return to panel rand reset
Click to expand...

ideal makes a tester, #61-059 that you can plug into the bedroom outlet, push the button and it will trip the breaker. it can also test for shared neutral and GFI'S. on the downside continous use plugging it in pushing the button and moving on to the next one will cause it to overheat and you will have to wait for it to cool down.
 
boatfull said:
ideal makes a tester, #61-059 . . .
Click to expand...
From the Ideal #61-059 Instruction Sheet:
Note:
1. All appliances or equipment on the circuit being tested should be unplugged to help avoid erroneous readings.
2. Not a comprehensive diagnostic instrument but a simple instrument to detect nearly all common improper wiring conditions.
3. Refer all indicated problems to a qualified electrician.
4. Will not indicate quality of ground.
5. Will not detect two hot wires in a circuit.
6. Will not detect a combination of defects.
7. Will not detect reversal of grounded and grounding conductors.
Click to expand...
 
I test breakers if they are tripping. If I put my meter on it and the Current and the Voltage are where they are supposed to be and the breaker is tripping, I look to be Breaker for the Problem. If the Voltage is fine and the Amperage is High and the Breaker trips, then I look somewhere else for the problem.With an arc fault or a ground fault there's no way of knowing that if you change it out that you dont end up with yet another oversensitive Device thus not knowing what the true problem was to begin with.
Oh well, After all of this I realize that no one has made an affordable meter to be able to check these.
But I sure wish there was.
Everyone keeps talking about the test button. The Test button does in fact test it to trip off, But if it is tripping already there is nothing to tell you why it tripped.


Thanks,
 
jap said:
Everyone keeps talking about the test button. The Test button does in fact test it to trip off, But if it is tripping already there is nothing to tell you why it tripped.


Thanks,
Click to expand...

This is where other meters such as DMM's, ammeters, and meggers come into play.

Roger
 
This line load tester was the most comprehensive device available that seems to be offering the data that you are looking for.

inspIII.jpg


No, it isn't cheap but should be able to pay for itself quickly if you are making this query frequently. I did a simple Google search and found the item by clicking on the shopping link or you can click here for the direct link to mitchell instruments
 
Regularkevin said:
This line load tester was the most comprehensive device available that seems to be offering the data that you are looking for.
Click to expand...
Respectfully, Regularkevin,

Go back to Post #19 by the OP (openning poster, jap) and you will see that this is not what he is looking for.

The Tasco Inspector III has its value, but not for testing for a weak AFCI across the range of triggers for an AFCI.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I like the work you've done. Your post on your AFCI testing results is great hands-on information that I wish we had more of. It's too bad that the knowledge from your work and reporting, and other grass roots information sources, is not matched by the manufacturers themselves.

Let me be clear about my AFCI protection untestability point.

The Combination Type AFCI has responses to real world "signals" that, I intuit, are going to be beyond representation by anything as simple as an inverse time - current curve.
Jap, in the OP and subsequent posts, explains that s/he is looking for a "tester" that will: A "tester", to truly be a Tester, has to check ALL possible combinations of signals that contribute to the AFCI firmware outputting to the Interruption Counter.

Anything less than ALL relegates the "tester" to the status of an "indicator".

And there is still the AFCI plain-old-garden-variety (POGV) overcurrent mechanism that must be "tested".
Click to expand...

Al,
Thanks for your commends on my posting. I collected a lot of information during my testing. I can supply more information but I felt it might bore most readers. I do understand that most electricians want a simple go-nogo test and the built-in test switch provides that for them.

My point was that a "real AFCI tester" is totally a real possibility.

The "tester" vs. "Indicator" argument is really just a semantics game.

Would you consider the "test" button on the AFCI to be testing any and all of the functions of the AFCI?
The answer is no , and not even close to it. It does not even do as thorough of a job as the Ideal AFCI tester/indicator does.

I am not saying that it should or must, just that it does not. As a matter of fact if you remove the AC "L1 =hot" wire from the center of the sensing core (and route around the outside of the core) the breaker test switch will indicate that the breaker is good! This even though it no longer has any idea what level of 60 hz or high frequency currents are flowing in the downstream circuit!
(given this not normal and a highly unlikely manufacturing defect). I just mention it as a point in the tester/indicator argument.

I believe that the manufacturers of these devices should be offering some better methods for isolating issues having to do with AFCI testing in the field.
I understand that Siemens at least provides an LED indicator to differentiate between a GF and an Arc event. That is a good start.

Perhaps they could also offer a "tester" breaker. A breaker that you could install temporarily in a problem installation that provided much more data output. This tester/breaker could have a USB port that would feed output data to a laptop running a diagnostic program. That program could provide information such as differential current (for GF), peak 60 hz current, peak levels of current in the high frequency bands, greatest di/dt levels etc.
Basically provide all the data that each and every AFCI must deal with normally in order to make its determination as to whether or not to trip.
Just port it out to all of us :smile:

All that being said I think it is fine for an electrician to simply rely on using the test function as it is built-in to the breaker.

Some individuals post a desire for more testability and I think both UL and the manufacturers of AFCIs should share a responsibility to provide that help rather than simply labeling some manufacturers attempts to provide help as "indicators" and not real testers.
 
ELA said:
I believe that the manufacturers of these devices should be offering some better methods for isolating issues having to do with AFCI testing in the field.
I understand that Siemens at least provides an LED indicator to differentiate between a GF and an Arc event. That is a good start.
Click to expand...
Yes. The breaker LEDs indicat one of four things:
  1. Blinking = self diagnosed need for replacement
  2. Both OFF = trip caused by overcurrent
  3. Only one ON = arc fault
  4. Both ON = arc fault to ground
The breaker retains the memory for up to 30 days, and the memory contents can be cleared by holding the test button down while turning the breaker on.

Definitely a quantum step in the right direction.
ELA said:
Perhaps they could also offer a "tester" breaker. A breaker that you could install temporarily in a problem installation that provided much more data output. This tester/breaker could have a USB port that would feed output data to a laptop running a diagnostic program. That program could provide information such as differential current (for GF), peak 60 hz current, peak levels of current in the high frequency bands, greatest di/dt levels etc.
Basically provide all the data that each and every AFCI must deal with normally in order to make its determination as to whether or not to trip.
Just port it out to all of us :smile:
Click to expand...
Great idea.
 
bartajr

bartajr

I just had a final today in S Hampton NY and the inspector used a remote device to test if it was on AFCI . Did not get to see the make . I had Installed squared afci breakers , witch will not reset under a load condition .
So whact out it's not always the breaker thats bad . Or the wiring just the proceedure,
 
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