GFI for refrigerator by bar sink

[bstoin]

Nobody failed to comply with the code-- it was the intent if the code changed.

The op questioned the accurracy of why a refrigerator next to a laundry sink has to be on a GFI according to the code as written today but it does not have to be in the kitchen if the refrig. were next to the sink.

I stated it wouldn't surprise me if the kitchen refrigerator would soon be required to be on a GFCI.

Cavie responded that his refrigerator would never be on a GFCI-- implying he would not follow the code for his refrigerator.

That's when Pierre made his statement.

Right, so where's the violation? Are we going to start enforcing a future code which does not yet exist?
Cavies response doesn't refer to a fridge in any specific location. He could have been referring to a fridge in a kitchen, in the laundry room, in the garage, outside or on the roof (oh wait, maybe that would be a violation).
So then does a clothes washer have to be on a GFCI protected outlet if it is installed within 6' of the sink in the laundry room?

 

[M. D.]

My ref will never be on a GFI. The dailey summertime Florida lightning storms just will not allow it.

If this outlet "will" be within 6' of a wet bar or utility sink it will be or it will be in violation. The use of the the phrase "will never" could imply that It may well require protection now.

So, Cavie does your refrigerator receptacle outlet require GFCI protection or not??

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I did not ask the question to create such furor from the masses. It was directed towards the person who posted the comment. Let that person answer.

Like anyone else here, I have and will post my opinions...hence an open forum. It is quite okay that you may not agree with me...this makes for a free country

 

[Bea]

So then does a clothes washer have to be on a GFCI protected outlet if it is installed within 6' of the sink in the laundry room?[/QUOTE]


Yes, there is no exception to 210.8(A)(7) in the 2005 NEC but some may view it as dedicated space for appliance if low and behind clothes washer

 

[M. D.]

Yes, there is no exception to 210.8(A)(7) in the 2005 NEC but some may view it as dedicated space for appliance if low and behind clothes washer

what does that have to do with the protection they want provided?

 

[bstoin]

I did not ask the question to create such furor from the masses. It was directed towards the person who posted the comment. Let that person answer.

Like anyone else here, I have and will post my opinions...hence an open forum. It is quite okay that you may not agree with me...this makes for a free country

Keep it up! No one is criticizing you for your comments, etc.
I have enjoyed the forum for the very reason that you stated: (1)it contains different opinions (2)it is an open forum (3)some may not agree with another's opinions.
I have learned a great deal from doing such things because as they say "two heads are better than one."
When we discuss (dare I say "argue?") such things, everyone wins because we all learn the particulars of such codes and their application.
When all is said and done it keeps us up to pace with the AHJs and better equips us to safely and expertly complete our jobs.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Keep it up! No one is criticizing you for your comments, etc.
I have enjoyed the forum for the very reason that you stated: (1)it contains different opinions (2)it is an open forum (3)some may not agree with another's opinions.
I have learned a great deal from doing such things because as they say "two heads are better than one."
When we discuss (dare I say "argue?") such things, everyone wins because we all learn the particulars of such codes and their application.
When all is said and done it keeps us up to pace with the AHJs and better equips us to safely and expertly complete our jobs.

That is very well stated!

 

[Bea]

what does that have to do with the protection they want provided?

I am not sure I follow your question but if I understand you correctly if the receptacle was behind the clothes washer then perhaps it would not be readily accessible to plug portable equipment into that could be used to close to the sink as that is an exception to GFI requirements in other areas. Even thought it is black and white does not mean there could be give and take as long as the intent is met.

Maybe you have a different piont of view if so fill free to share.

 

[donselec]

I am not sure I follow your question but if I understand you correctly if the receptacle was behind the clothes washer then perhaps it would not be readily accessible to plug portable equipment into that could be used to close to the sink as that is an exception to GFI requirements in other areas. Even thought it is black and white does not mean there could be give and take as long as the intent is met.

Maybe you have a different piont of view if so fill free to share.

See 210.8(A)(7): (dwelling unit GFIs required for) "laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks--where the receptacles are installed within 6' of the outside edge of the sink." There are no exceptions to this rule, even though they tried to get an exception in the 2005 Code, it was rejected. Of course this only applies to 125-volt 1-phase 15- and 20-amp receptacles, (not 240V).

 

[Bea]

See 210.8(A)(7): (dwelling unit GFIs required for) "laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks--where the receptacles are installed within 6' of the outside edge of the sink." There are no exceptions to this rule, even though they tried to get an exception in the 2005 Code, it was rejected. Of course this only applies to 125-volt 1-phase 15- and 20-amp receptacles, (not 240V).

I know what the NEC said I stated that in my first post #24

 

[donselec]

I know what the NEC said I stated that in my first post #24

Then what are you referring to in #28? (no offense)

 

[M. D.]

Bea,if it is within 6', it does not matter if it is behind or that other things may be connected to the outlet the refer. is connected to, it is clear they want it protected as well as anything else that may be plugged into it.
Refigerators are not incompatible with GFCI protection or at least they certainly should not be. As for lightining and other acts of God ,.. well I'm not sure the code is much help at all.

I don't understand the "give and take" comment

210.8 (A) Dwelling units All 125-volt, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground fault circuit interupter protection for personnel

90.5 , The use of the word "shall" identifies this as an action that is specifically required,which equals no give and take .

 

[JohnJ0906]

When I took a 2005 NEC change course, we discussed the GFCI requirement for ALL 15 & 20 125v receps in a commercial kitchen and the comment was made about refrigerators nusance tripping. Our teacher told us that the UL standards had tightened up on acceptable leakage to ground on fridges, and new units would not nusance trip. The point of the change was to force fridges that tripped to be repaired or replace. I have no idea if this is true or not, but this guy has a rep for being on top of keeping up with info like this. Anybody know if this is true?

My point is with the regular tightening up of the GFCI requirements, a good fridge isn't supposed to trip a GFCI

 

[tallgirl]

Does not the GFCI only open when there is a difference in the current between the two conductors?
If there is a difference in the current wouldn?t the lost current have to be going somewhere else?
Where is the lost current going?

It gets stored in the magnetic field of any inductors in the motor.

 

[sparky_magoo]

I wired one house, several years back. I put the fridge on a GFCI ckt. The GFCI tripped when the lady was on vacation. There was no reason for the GFCI to trip. Her food went bad. She expected me to pay for the food. This was a "side job" I did, while I was laid off. She was my wife's best friend. She never paid the bill. I re-wired her entire house cheap, and never got paid.

I learned three things. First, never do side work, even if I am laid off.

Second, never do a side job, especially if it is for your wifes best friend.

Third, never put a fridge. on a GFCI.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

When I took a 2005 NEC change course, we discussed the GFCI requirement for ALL 15 & 20 125v receps in a commercial kitchen and the comment was made about refrigerators nusance tripping. Our teacher told us that the UL standards had tightened up on acceptable leakage to ground on fridges, and new units would not nusance trip. The point of the change was to force fridges that tripped to be repaired or replace. I have no idea if this is true or not, but this guy has a rep for being on top of keeping up with info like this. Anybody know if this is true?

My point is with the regular tightening up of the GFCI requirements, a good fridge isn't supposed to trip a GFCI

This is definitely true, your instructor has good info.
Remember that installing the new generation type GFCI and then plugging in an older refrigerator could become an issue if the fridge has leakage current greater than 5 mili amps...which could be the case for different reasons.

 

[iwire]

Wow what a thread.

Put yourself in the CMPs position, they are responsible for electrical safety, they are not responsible for the freshness of your groceries.

Refrigerators and freezers even without a GFCI can and do fail, the utility sometimes has blackouts. People have to take some amount of responsibility for the food they place in their own mouth.

Now if someone resets the GFCI that supplies their refrigerator without checking for spoilage that is their bad decision, it is not the fault of the electrician for following the code.

I have read that the common reason that refrigerators or freezers will trip a GFCI has nothing to do with the compressor, it has to do with the electric heating elements used for self defrosting.

That actually make a lot of sense as many motor loads run fine on GFCIs. (Pools, construction equipment, etc)

IMO if you have a refrigerator or freezer that keeps tripping the GFCI then you have a refrigerator that should be taken out of service.

As far as the few that expressed the opinion that they would never put a refrigerator on a GFCI I ask what are you going to do for work when the 2008 NEC is adopted?

Besides the fact that currently all 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles in commercial kitchens must be GFCI protected and that all vending machines (even refrigerated ones) must be GFCI protected, once the 2008 NEC is adopted the exceptions for dedicated appliances in garages and basements will be gone.

And under 2008s expanded AFCI requirements you will have most everything on a GFCI. All AFCIs contain a GFCI as well, the trip level is a bit higher than a class A GFCI but it is GFCI non-the less.

Now I do care about keeping the customers happy but I care more about following the code rules, as long as a code rule expects me to place a GFCI where a refrigerator will be use I will do so.

There are refrigerator / freezer alarms available if the customer is that concerned about losing some food.

 

[M. D.]

I wired one house, several years back. I put the fridge on a GFCI ckt. The GFCI tripped when the lady was on vacation. There was no reason for the GFCI to trip. Her food went bad. She expected me to pay for the food. This was a "side job" I did, while I was laid off. She was my wife's best friend. She never paid the bill. I re-wired her entire house cheap, and never got paid.

I learned three things. First, never do side work, even if I am laid off.

Second, never do a side job, especially if it is for your wifes best friend.

Third, never put a fridge. on a GFCI.

Personal injury will cost a hell of a lot more than that , you can bet your backside they won't give a rat's arse about the reason you did not follow the N.E.C. There are many hundreds of thousands of refrigerators being supplied through receptacles that provide GFCI protection there would be a pile of evidence against you right down to the statements of the panel who are partly responsible for writing the code to begin with . Good luck , it may never happen and it will only matter,... when it matters.

If this is such a big problem why doesn't some really smart guy start making referigerators with a hard wire whips ?? No receptacle no requirement? It still could kill you I guess??:roll:

P.S. With friends like that,......... well ,I think that woman is her own best friend.

 

[M. D.]

Hey Sparky ,just to let you know, if you have your licence your not out of the soup because you work for someone else, you will be responsibile for the work you perform untill your pushing up daisys.

Your pockets are not as deep , but you have them.

 

[jwelectric]

Does not the GFCI only open when there is a difference in the current between the two conductors? If there is a difference in the current wouldn?t the lost current have to be going somewhere else? Where is the lost current going? It gets stored in the magnetic field of any inductors in the motor.

Thanks Girl, I have turned gray headed thinking about this. Now I can start using that stuff to hide the gray.