GFI for refrigerator by bar sink

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iwire said:
Wow what a thread.



And under 2008s expanded AFCI requirements you will have most everything on a GFCI. All AFCIs contain a GFCI as well, the trip level is a bit higher than a class A GFCI but it is GFCI non-the less.
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Not to sound dumb, but if the AFCIs contain a GFCI, will they work for bathrooms, kitchens, etc., or do you need a regular GFCI for that in addition to the AFCI, or does anyone know?
 
iwire said:
Wow what a thread.

Put yourself in the CMPs position, they are responsible for electrical safety, they are not responsible for the freshness of your groceries.

Refrigerators and freezers even without a GFCI can and do fail, the utility sometimes has blackouts. People have to take some amount of responsibility for the food they place in their own mouth.

Now if someone resets the GFCI that supplies their refrigerator without checking for spoilage that is their bad decision, it is not the fault of the electrician for following the code.

I have read that the common reason that refrigerators or freezers will trip a GFCI has nothing to do with the compressor, it has to do with the electric heating elements used for self defrosting.

That actually make a lot of sense as many motor loads run fine on GFCIs. (Pools, construction equipment, etc)

IMO if you have a refrigerator or freezer that keeps tripping the GFCI then you have a refrigerator that should be taken out of service.

As far as the few that expressed the opinion that they would never put a refrigerator on a GFCI I ask what are you going to do for work when the 2008 NEC is adopted?

Besides the fact that currently all 15 and 20 amp 125 volt receptacles in commercial kitchens must be GFCI protected and that all vending machines (even refrigerated ones) must be GFCI protected, once the 2008 NEC is adopted the exceptions for dedicated appliances in garages and basements will be gone.

And under 2008s expanded AFCI requirements you will have most everything on a GFCI. All AFCIs contain a GFCI as well, the trip level is a bit higher than a class A GFCI but it is GFCI non-the less.

Now I do care about keeping the customers happy but I care more about following the code rules, as long as a code rule expects me to place a GFCI where a refrigerator will be use I will do so.

There are refrigerator / freezer alarms available if the customer is that concerned about losing some food.
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Yeah...quite a thread this has become. All kinds of cans of worms around here.
As far as refridgerators tripping GFCI outlets are concerned...of all the cases I have seen and heard of from colleagues, it wasn't the fridge that tripped the GFCI, it was something wired DOWNSTREAM. For instance, say you have a fridge or freezer in the garage. A very common practice is to wire the outside outlets downstream from the GFCI in the garage. The same is true of basement outlets, many times I have seen outside outlets wired downstram from the basement GFCI. Here lies the problem, it is quite common for moisture to enter the outlets outside and trip the GFCI inside. So really it's on most occasions not the fridge that trips the GFCI its something else (not to say that a fridge or freezer won't on occasion trip a GFCI since ground faults may occur in any piece of equipment).
To fix such problems, make sure that the GFCI outlet for the fridge (if you decide to use one) has nothing downstream on the load side of the outlet, or else install a dedicated circuit for the fridge or freezer.
 
Not to sound dumb, but if the AFCIs contain a GFCI, will they work for bathrooms, kitchens, etc., or do you need a regular GFCI for that in addition to the AFCI, or does anyone know?
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The standard AFCI does not incorporate Class A GFCI protection as requried for kitchens, bathrooms and other such locations. It has a GFP (ground fault protection) and a trip point of 30 to 50mA. Class A GFCI protection requires a trip point of 4 to 6mA. There are some AFCIs available, at extra cost, that has Class A GFCI protection built in.
Don
 
bstoin said:
So really it's on most occasions not the fridge that trips the GFCI its something else (not to say that a fridge or freezer won't on occasion trip a GFCI since ground faults may occur in any piece of equipment).
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I'm still gun shy. I did a remodel last year (a mother/daughter type house) where the mom got to move into the new section. New kitchen with new appliances. I had the kitchen laid out properly in accordance with the kitchen plan but there was a last minute re-design (after the sheetrock was in) and the fridge ended up on another wall. Unfortunately, it ended up on the load side of the SA GFI circuit. Within 2 days it tripped the GFI and the HO lost all her food. I ended up having to install 3 additional GFI receptacles (fed thru) in order to get the fridge on a non GFI circuit.

We can all say what we wish about the appliance(s) being defective, shouldn't be in the garage, etc but you can be rest assured that if a HO wants a fridge in their garage it's going in even if they have to connect it to the keyless fixture on the ceiling with lamp cord. God forbid they should call us for a solution !!
 
bstoin said:
..... So really it's on most occasions not the fridge that trips the GFCI its something else (not to say that a fridge or freezer won't on occasion trip a GFCI since ground faults may occur in any piece of equipment).....
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This has been my expiereance as well . Last summer I got a call from a lady who said that while she was gone camping she lost power to her refrigerator and could not find any breaker or GfCI receptacle that was tripped. Long story short it was a back wired receptacle fed from a gfci receptacle that was feeding the receptacle that the refer was plugged into that caused the problem.
easy for me to say:grin:

My kitchen frige is on a GFCI protected outlet ,... 7 trip free years and counting. I do push the test button from time to time
 
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We're still on the 2002 here and mine says "Wet bar sinks-where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top surfaces and are located within 6' of the outside edge of the wet bar sink."

Why would they change that? I agree with one of the other posters that asked if that could not also include the laundry circuit now? Putting something like a refrigerator on a GFCI, especially one that you might not realize has tripped for several days, seems like a really bad idea.
 
what is the point (speaking in terms of safety) of GFI on a fridge circuit?
why would it be required?
 
Cavie said:
My ref will never be on a GFI. The daily summertime Florida lightning storms just will not allow it.
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Since Cavie first made this statement, many members have commented upon it. But Cavie has not yet returned to respond to any comments.

So let me offer the ?benefit of the doubt? explanation. :wink: :) Cavie can tell me later if I have it wrong. Perhaps what was meant is that the present location of Cavie?s fridge is not one that requires GFCI protection, and that Cavie is undertaking to never move the fridge to another location. As to the 2008 NEC, it will not require anyone to change the present configuration of their electrical system. So perhaps Cavie likes the house so well that a major remodel or a move is not likely to ever happen.
 
mayjong said:
what is the point (speaking in terms of safety) of GFI on a fridge circuit?
why would it be required?
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The way I look at it is, if you have a fridge in a garage, and you install a non gfi receptacle, what happens after they decide to remove the fridge? Or better yet, they run an extension cord from that receptacle... its all about safety...
 
mayjong said:
what is the point (speaking in terms of safety) of GFI on a fridge circuit?
why would it be required?
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The code does not specifically require a fridge to be GFCI protected.

The code does require receptacles in certain locations to be GFCI protected.

What gets plugged into these receptacles does not change the requirement for the location.
 
celtic said:
Is there ANY requirement to use a duplex (as opposed to a single) recep. in a home? ;)
Dennis Alwon said:
I require it. They are cheaper.
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Let's try that again...


Is there ANY NEC requirement to use a duplex (as opposed to a single) recep. in a home?
 
iwire said:
The code does not specifically require a fridge to be GFCI protected.

The code does require receptacles in certain locations to be GFCI protected.

What gets plugged into these receptacles does not change the requirement for the location.
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i know that, i'm talking about the new (upcoming ) requirement that will require it to be GFCI protected.
my question is why? how is it safer ?

thanks.
 
Nobody is saying that the 2008 code will require gfci. I had said earlier in a post that iw would not surprise me if refrig. would be required to be GFCI protected.

I think what Bob was referring to the area within 6' of a wet bar or laundry sink. His point was that a refrigerator is not specifically req. to be on GFCI. Only recep. within 6' of the sink. If the refrig. is within 6' of the sink then it needs to be on a GFI. If the refrig was move than 6' it would not have to be.

As it stands now this is not the case for refrig. in a kitchen.
 
mayjong said:
i know that, i'm talking about the new (upcoming ) requirement that will require it to be GFCI protected.
my question is why? how is it safer ?

thanks.
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I am not sure I am following you.

There is no upcoming requirement specifically calling for a fridge to be on a GFCI.

But there are locations right now that require GFCI protection and if you happen to place a fridge at that location it will have to be GFCI protected.

How is it safer?

Because if if the EGC fails and there is a line to case fault the GFCI may very well save your life.

Before you say that is far fetched a failure of the EGC combined with a line to case fault has already happened and killed people.

That is specifically why commercial kitchens now require GFCI protection.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Nobody is saying that the 2008 code will require gfci. I had said earlier in a post that iw would not surprise me if refrig. would be required to be GFCI protected.
.
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ohhh , i mis-read it....
 
Wet Bar GFCI

Wet Bar GFCI

Am i reading this wrong or does the outlet behind the bar refrigerator have to be accessible from the sink to be required to be GFCI protected. Wouldn't it be like the big flat screen TV by the wet Bar sink? If you can't plug anything into it accessibly why GFCI?
 
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